Valjoux 90 triple calendar/moonphase

[Knebo]

Hello all!

This will be a walk-through of my service of my Valjoux 90 triple calendar and moonphase watch by the largely unknown brand "Nivia" (if you happen to know more about then brand than on this website http://www.nivia.com.hk/, please do let me know. I'm curious).

I bought it from a private seller who had bought it a year earlier from a professional dealer. It had been serviced by that dealer (so a year ago). I had noticed that it was running with significant differences in amplitude between dial up and dial down positions, so I had previously opened it and discovered some metal shavings, mostly at the pivot of the central seconds pinion. After removing that debris (and re-oiling the escapement)... wait for it... it was overbanking!!  Oh boy.

Well, spoiler, the mainspring turned out to be too thick (0.15mm instead of 0.14mm; and power reserve was rather low-ish). So now, I'm giving it a full service and a thinner mainspring.

As with my service of a Jaeger LeCoultre Memovox cal 916 (see here: https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/29824-jaeger-lecoultre-calibre-916-memovox/), I'll post the walkthrough several stages, as I progress.

Today: disassembly.

 

Just a few pictures of the whole thing:

 

I start by taking the bezel and crystal off. And taking some more pictures.

hands off

Snap-on caseback removed. Some marks of previous watchmakers.

very pretty movement, I think.

movement holding screws

a screw to release the stem,

removing the central seconds bridge and pinion

Note: the pinion goes on top of the spring. I'll leave the spring in place for cleaning.

, 

I don't have a special tool for this, so I carefully remove the friction-fit seconds driving wheel with my hands levers. Worked fine.

 

I struggled to find the screws to release the dial. After a while I found the eccentric screws that are accessed from the train side of the movement.

gorgeous triple date and moonphase mechanism

shouldered screws everywhere.

the following pictures of disassembling the calendar works is without additional comments. Mostly to record good pictures of the scews and correct positions of levers etc.

 

Some of the pins on the day/month/moonphase driving wheels are a bit bent and one of them even a bit loose. I'll fix that later with the staking set.

these shouldered screws are a bit longer than the others.

train side (will do the keyless works after)

back to dial side and keyless works

the lower balance jewels are hidden under this big plate

straight foward keyless works

 

Using a rounded stake that just fits around the pins to straighten them and to tighten them in their holes in the wheel. Worked well.

the results look fine

back to the case. disassembling also the correctors. Lots of very old grease. 

giving the hands a little buffing with leather.

 

 

WELL, that's it for today. 

After cleaning, I'll post pictures of epilame treatments and then assembly.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

After removing that debris (and re-oiling the escapement)... wait for it... it was overbanking!!  Oh boy.

Common mistake buddy,  what you are seeing is re-banking, the impulse pin banging on the forkhorn's back door. 

Ohhhh that came out soooo wrong

Edited September 11, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[VWatchie]

Nice watch, and thanks for all the pictures! Did you figure out what calibre is in there?

[Knebo]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Common mistake buddy,  what you are seeing is re-banking, the impulse pin banging on the forkhorn's back door. 

haha, I never know what the correct term is. Overbanking or re-banking. In any case, my interpretation was the same as yours. Amplitude was going over 340° and then it started hitting the other side.

 

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ohhhh that came out soooo wrong

For sure unintentional, right ?? 

 

 

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Nice watch, and thanks for all the pictures! Did you figure out what calibre is in there?

Much more to come...

The calibre is a Valjoux 90. Which is based on the Valjoux 23/72 chronograph movements, just without the chrono, but with all the calendar.

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 Knebo realizes the issue he is facing and whats causing it, so will correct it, furthur realizes that the  previous watch destroyer ( who obviously had wrongly diag the issue )  had tried to correct " a wrong " by " "a second wrong".  

Knebo has all ingredients of a watch fixer, DOING REAL GOOD PAL.

And here I am hoping my broken English is understandable.

Must admit overbanking and rebanking is confusing. 

Heres a good read on the subject.

https://wahawatches.com/what-is-rebanking-or-knocking-of-a-watch-movement/

 

Rgds

Edited September 12, 2024 by Nucejoe
Typo

[Knebo]

Thank you @Nucejoe

That means a lot to me from a true watch repairer!

The article is good. Nothing new to me, though (except the clarification on terminology ). I especially agree that modern oils and mainspring alloys can quickly lead to re-banking on old watches (1950s and before) and that it's often a wise choice to opt for a weaker mainspring from the outset. In my case, the one I found in the movement was 0.15mm, whereas the original mainspring should be 0.14mm. I actually ordered a 0.13mm mainspring... I think (hope) that I'll still get sufficient amplitude (we'll see!) and a small boost in power reserve (because the spring will be a bit longer).

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Must admit overbanking and rebanking is confusing. 

Hey Joe both of these scenarios are effectively doing  something similar, the impulse pin tapping or pushing the outside of the fork horns, pushing the lever moreso against one of the banking pins, without pins or incorrectly set wide pin spacing its easy to imagine that damage could occur at the pallet stones when re- banking happens (excess amplitude causing the balance and impulse pin to swing too far and impact on the outside of the fork horn ) by forcing more total lock at impact not to mention the side impact to the impulse pin itself, i see this scenario as the lever is being constantly RE-BANKED after it has already banked against the banking pins during slide or run to banking. For overbanking this also seems quite easy to remember, the impulse pin has made its way OVER to the wrong side of the fork horn unable to now release the escapement, maybe the fork's gaurd pin clearances were too much allowing the lever to slip back to it's previous banking after a watch impact had unlocked the escapement, now trapping the impulse pin on the wrong side of the fork. OVERBANKED, the impulse pin pushing is now pushing for more banking of the lever. The explanations of scenarios are correct,  I may not be right with why those terms are named as such but it does make them easy to remember which is which

Edited September 12, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[Knebo]

@Neverenoughwatches whether or not you are "right with why those terms are named as such", you post will help me remember the respective terms. Thanks.

Besides, I think that "knocking" is the clearer one as opposed to re-banking.

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, Knebo said:

The calibre is a Valjoux 90. Which is based on the Valjoux 23/72 chronograph movements

I need to learn to read the headers!  Thanks! 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

@Neverenoughwatches whether or not you are "right with why those terms are named as such", you post will help me remember the respective terms. Thanks.

Besides, I think that "knocking" is the clearer one as opposed to re-banking.

Re-banking = technical.  Knocking = layman's.  Knocking on back door = I ain't even gonna venture into explaining that what that term describes

If you know you know, if you dont know then you dont wanna know

[VWatchie]

46 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

If you know you know, if you dont know then you dont wanna know

I don't know but for some reason I took a guess and started to laugh! 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I don't know but for some reason I took a guess and started to laugh! 

Ahh love your sense of humor H  its probably not so far away from mine Hmm.....started to laugh.....maybe not quite so funny for the owner of the back door

[Nucejoe]

WRT forum or a library ? 

So,  Found this walkthrough online. 

Not intended to spoil the fun here, just that it further  enriches this already rich walkthrough.

 

https://watchguy.co.uk/service-ebel-triple-date-valjoux-90/

Rgds

[Knebo]

Hey @Nucejoe

Thanks!

Yes, I saw that one. Hardly any information on how to service it, but still nice as a reference. 

 

[VWatchie]

51 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Hardly any information on how to service it, but still nice as a reference. 

Agree, so please keep us up to date on your progress!

[Knebo]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

please keep us up to date on your progres

Absolutely! Until it's done. 

[Knebo]

Hello everyone!!

I finally managed to finish the assembly and to upload all the photos!

It took longer than expected and I had a few issues that took a fair bit of fault-finding and troubleshooting. Great learning opportunitiy.

Well, but now step-by-step.

 

Cleaning in ultrasonic cleaner:

1 cycle of 7min in L&R 111 cleaning solution

2 cycles of 7min (each) in L&R watch rinsing solution

 

Since the balance was still mounted on the main plate, I start by oiling the shock-protected balance jewel settings with 9010. 

 

Prepping the barrel bridge which has the click and crown wheel on the underside.
- a bit of HP1300 around the click post
- a bit of 9504 between click and click spring (the photo looks like I'm putting it on the wrong side of the spring, but obviously I put it in-between)

two small drops of HP1300 where the outer crown wheel rests

(removing the excess HP1300 where it didn't fit under the crown wheel)

two small drops (always red oiler, by the way) where the outer crown wheel rests/slides on the inner crown wheel.

 

 

Prepping the train bridge. The fixed cap jewel for the escape wheel is installed and oiled from the underside.

One drop of 9010 into the sink, then using a filed-down oiler (to a very fine tip) to push the oil through. Checking the size of the oil ring from the other side with the microscope and repeating the process with another very small drop of 9010. Now the oil ring looks perfect.

 

 

Prepping with epilame. Escape wheel (in jar), pallet jewels and centre seconds pinion with a syringe. Removing epilame again from the pivots of the escape wheel.

I don't epilame balance jewels anymore since I read in some Rolex service manuals that they don't recommend doing it. 

 

Prepping the mainspring barrel. 

As mentioned before, the watch was originally re-banking (knocking). 

The mainspring used by the previous watch-destroyer was too thick (0.15mm instead of 0.14mm; and power reserve was rather low). Considering that I'll be using modern synthetic lubricants, I even decided to go down further to 0.13mm (GR3342).

HP1300 on the arbor (note, there's no screw hole in the arbor, so make sure that the square bit goes in first)

now two small drops of HP1300 on the other side

closing

Ready for assembly. Another drop of HP1300 on the arbor where it goes on the main plate.

and on it goes

and the ratchet wheel on top

some HP1300 on the centre wheel

..and in

 

I already position the other wheels (not necessary)

Don't forget the screw for the setting lever before installing the barrel bridge!

I also add a drop of 9504 on the click where it interacts with the ratchet wheel.

NOTE: you may see that I put some grease on the discolored ring that slides over the ratchet wheel. I later removed this because it seemed to rather bind the ratchet wheel and cause low amplitude in the dial up position. So I suggest not oiling it at all.

drops of HP1300 on upper side of barrel arbor and centre wheel

and here goes the barrel bridge. It's a bit fiddly with the click (there's a round cut-out in the bridge on the left side of the photo with a small pin that can be manipulated to pull the click to the side to facilitate process of installing the bridge).

the pre-prepped train bridge goes in

pallet fork

 

now the keyless works.

First, canon pinion after some 9504 on the centre wheel.

winding and sliding pinion with 9504

stem with 9504

setting lever and more 9504

yoke and yoke spring don't have posts, but shouldered screws. This makes it a bit tricky: the latter that you install will be under tension and it's therefore not so easy to insert the shouldered screw. I suggest starting with the yoke (a tiny bit of HP1300 on the shoulder of the screw).

jumper spring

quick turn-around to secure the setting lever screw

back to dial side: some 9504 on the two positions of the jumper

close up after removing some excess grease

small drops of HP1300 on the posts for the time setting wheels (oil covers approx the top 1/3 of the height of the posts)

 

I use the residual HP1300 (almost nothing) on the slightly raised rings on which the wheels sit)

big bridge covers the time setting and keyless works.

Oiling the train jewels on the dial side. (just one photo).

I opt for 9010 for the escape wheel (like on the train side, of course). Then HP1300 for the rest. I know, maybe too viscous and I'm sure I'll loose a bit of amplitude. But I tell myself that HP1300 will last the longest and stay in place the best. Once could certainly use 9020, HP500 and or HP1000.

balance in and it ticks. I let it run while I oil the remaining pivots of the train side with HP1300.

Then I remove the balance again. I follow this belief that the "dry" running will now have scraped off the epilame in a channel, permitting a more effective oiling at this point. So I oil the exit pallet stone with 3 drops of 9415 (advancing the escape wheel a few teeth each time).

Checking the amounts by slowly sliding the exit stone along the escape wheel teeth. Approx 70-80% coverage of the tooth is my aim.

 

AND BIG MISTAKE. I dropped the balance cock when trying to reinstall it  The cock dropped on the mainplate and the balance fell down. The hairspring was a bit bent... fortunately only on the end-curve, close to the stud. A bit of bending and it was good again. Here is the result after correcting:

Back in and it runs fine.

Now pressing on the centre seconds driving wheel

thining about the oiling of the centre seconds pinion (this picture was taken earlier before installing the centre wheel). As you can see, even the thicker part of the pinion is thinner than the whole in the centre wheel. Hence, the pinion touches only the jewel at the top pivot (train side) and the tight bushing within the centre wheel on the dial side.

Still, I'm applying a tiny amount of 9010 where the pinion rubs against the tension spring

the special bridge for the seconds pinion is installed. And oiled with 9010 (9020 may also be good/better).

I oil the pinion within the bushing of the centre wheel from the dial side. For this, I carefully apply a drop of oil only on one side of the oiler and slide it down the canon pinion). Some risk of oil spills here, but I think I did it well.

This concludes the base movement!

At this point, I did some testing. As mentioned before, amplitude was down significantly in the dial up position (minus 40 degrees). I concluded that it was caused by the grease under the barrel bridge. Having removed it, I still have about 15 degrees less amplitude dial up (vs dial down). Might still be the ratchet wheel binding against the barrel bridge, but less than before. I'll call it good.

 

Now to the triple calendar and moonphase!! I guess that's what you've been waiting for.

Each disc (day, month, moonphase) has the following:

- a wheel with a vertical pin that drives the star under each disc (teeth on outside of moonphase disc)

- a jumper (lever + spring)

- a corrector (lever + spring)

- the disc itself

 

All of the above are held by shouldered screws. I oil the shoulders of the screws for the levers with a small drop of HP1300. The screws for the springs don't need it, I think. The touching points between springs and levers are greased with 9504.

 

Funnily... the very first thing I did was wrong. I installed the month corrector before the day corrector. But the day corrector needs to go in first. So to keep things as a guide, I'm posting a later picture first to keep it as a "correct" chronological guide.

So please ignore everything on the picture, except the circled day corrector. The screw is unique and has a tall head (functions also as a distancer for the dial later on). Some HP1300 under it.

But back to the mostly empty plate... Now the corrector of the month disc

spring for month corrector installed (you now see that I forgot the day corrector, but imagine it's there). 9504 between spring and corrector.

this lever and spring will be jumper for the day disc

Take note of the oversized screw for the spring, which also holds secures the month corrector. I add a bit of HP1300 where the corrector slides under the screw.

9504 where spring and day jumper/lever touch

time for the combined hour+24h wheel after some HP1300 on the canon pinion

this spring will later work with the corrector for the date. It's a very strong spring.

 

Time for all the driving wheels with the vertical pins. Their position needs to be exactly coordinated so that date and day would jump at the same time (and the moonphase just a bit later, around 2-3am). 

Two aspects here:

1. which wheel where? Wheel 1 has the pin furthest out. Wheel 2 is in the middle. Wheel 3 has the pin closed to the centre.

2. how to position the pins? 
- Pin 1 needs to be opposite the circled dent in Wheel 2.
- the position of Pin 3 needs to be in a specific angle to the other ones... If you position everything like in my picture, the moonphase will jump at around 2am.

NOTE: the shouldered screws for these wheels have a longer thread than all the other ones (for springs and levers). HP1300 on their shoulders.

 

this spring (close to the crown) will interact with the jumper for date (just below, towards the center) and month 

Installing the jumper for the month disc (HP1300 on the shoulder)

some 9504 between the spring and the two jumpers

a funny little plate comes here. For proper positioning, push against it where you see my flat probe.

corrector for the date with the other large screw. Some HP1300 under it.

the tip of the corrector goes between two screws and I put a bit of 9504 where they touch the corrector

next corrector. This one is for the moonphase.

big and strong spring for the corrector. To install, I first half-way unscrew the two screws guiding it. I can then lift it up enough to move it over the corrector. 

tightening the two screws again. (only one of them shown here, but need to do it for both).

9504 at the rubbing point.

 

there are some scratches on the plate here from the spring. So I'm adding some 9504.

moonphase jumper (shouldered screw with HP1300)

spring for moonphase jumper (screw in half-way; place the spring; screw in fully)

the greasing point is where the jumper goes up (where my oiler is, exactly)

here you see where the jumper will be when the moonphase disc is in place.

 

The finished setup before installing the discs

 

 

moonphase first: pull the jumper with one hand, set the moonphase on the post. No screw here. Some HP1300 on the post.

 

Placing the day and month discs are a bit fiddly.

So after trying a few time, here is my preferred method in six steps:

1. lubricate the shouldered screw with HP 1300 and set it aside (close by).

2. Pull up the jumper...

3. and insert a 1.6mm screwdriver between the end of the lever and the screw to hold it back. (sorry for change of perspective, now the jumper is on the bottom).

 

4. position the disc over the screw hole

5. place and screw in the shouldered screw.

6. release the screwdriver.

 

similar for the month disc

 

DONE (or am I....???)

Well, what's interesting is that you can only properly test the functioning of the date and moophase corrector like this.

The combined day and month corrector needs to be depressed by a very exact amount. So it's not really possible to test like this.

So to the case and the pushers.

First, I put the dial (which I'll end up taking off many more times...). Two eccentric screws hold it in place. You can see their position from the train side through holes in the barrel bridge.

 

I put crazy amounts of silicone grease onside the pusher hole and around the springs inside

then I insert the actual pusher

view from the other side. The grease isn't oozing out (good).

Push the pusher against your workmat to be able to screw in the screw without pushing out the pusher.

 

Well, the day/month and date correctors didn't work properly.

I spent hours fault-finding. There were two issues, actually.

1. The screws for the pushers for day/month and date are not the same. I should have taken pictures of each pusher screw upon disassembly. I had to swap them around.

At this point, the date corrector started working. Good. But the day/month still didn't. The day always got stuck in-between days.

2. I found the vertical pins on the wheels to be a tiny bit too high! They were actually scratching the underside of the day and month discs. This made the disc not jump smoothly and get stuck. It also explains the metal shavings I had found in the movement when I first opened it. 

I used a file and gently filed them down a bit until they'd go under the day and month discs.

 

 

 

After this was solved, dial back on.

Set the time (clockwise!!) until the day disc jumps. Then install all the hands for midnight (date can be any..).

 

DO NOT test the pushers/correctors until you have advanced sufficiently past the jump of the moonphase. I'd say 6am, at least.

 

DONE!!!!

 

I'll post some timegrapher results soon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2024 by Knebo

[Knebo]

Here are the timegrapher readings at full wind (after 24h to be posted later):

[Knebo]

and now how it runs AFTER 24h:

[Knebo]

No feedback from anyone  ?

@Neverenoughwatches @VWatchie @Nucejoe

[SwissSeiko]

I think we all can agree you did a great job on this. I think your skill level probably doesn't need validation from us, you seem extremely capable! A very complicated movement for 98% of watchmakers, and you knocked it out of the park! I like that you included a bunch of photos. It will definitely help others who service this movement. I haven't had this one come across my bench yet.

[Knebo]

Dear @SwissSeiko, this is very kind of you! Trust me, I still need the validation 

While I'm generally pretty confident about my work, I am still extremely happy to receive suggestions / constructive criticism. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Knebo said:

No feedback from anyone  ?

@Neverenoughwatches @VWatchie @Nucejoe

Aw poor baby, all alone

Great job Knebo as SS states not a simple movement,  with moonphase and date pointer. A adequate positional 30° amp  drop and still good amp after 24h.

[Knebo]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Aw poor baby, all alone

I'll admit, after spending a few hours on the photos and write up, I just wanted some attention 

 

But also, if you see any detail that you'd have done differently, let me know. 

[Nucejoe]

Great job pal. 

Gather you are a perfectionist. 

Hard to keep  multiple complications in sync.

Possibly long time since its been put together so neatly .

  Rare piece, a keeper? 

Rgds