Jump to content

Felsa 1560 - movement issue.

apandersP

By apandersP
in Fault Finding / Fault Diagnosis

 Share

Recommended Posts

apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
Posted

Hello again.. 

I just serviced this movement. First ever movement to service. 
I had it running pretty good (before regulated it) yesterday (see attached photo)

But of cause I forgot to put in the screw that secure the winding stem in place.. it’s placed under the bridge, and that bridge is a pain in the a$£ to set in. I took it apart again, and after reassembly it runs bad. It’s like it doesn’t take my winding. 
 

When I take the little metal piece (photo attached) that hold the mainspring winded, nothing happens. So I guess that’s a sign of maybe a bad mainspring? Only the upper wheel on the mainspring barrel is turning when winding, is that right? (Also photo attached) 

Watch is cleaned by hand in IPA and oiled. 

 

IMG_3813.jpeg

IMG_3823.jpeg

IMG_3822.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites
apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
10 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Check if ratchet wheel rubs on barrel bridge. 

Possible cause, 

Ratchet wheel's centre square hole ,dislodged from barrel arbour square shoulder. 

 

Så both should spin? While winding? This rachet wheel is a bit different than what else I’ve seen. 
 

IMG_3827.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted (edited)

First image- Ratchet wheel's center hole is square.

Second image-Barrel arbour square shoulder too.

 

In your watch ratchet wheel has jumped out of place, therefor ratchet wheel has sat unlevel, thus ratchet  wheel rubs on barrel bridge.

image.png.d0af2ed07aadef4a9931a77c47b7778f.png

image.png

Edited by Nucejoe
Adding explanation
Link to comment
Share on other sites
apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
13 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

1- Ratchet wheel's center hole is square.

2-Barrel arbour square shoulder too, is square.

Should fit on right.

In your watch ratchet wheel has jumped out of place, therefor ratchet wheel has sat unlevel, thus the wheel rubs on barrel bridge.

image.png.d0af2ed07aadef4a9931a77c47b7778f.png

image.png

It looks similar to this one. Is it still the same principal? 
 

 

IMG_3828.jpeg

Also recognized that the hair spring looks a bit odd? 

IMG_3829.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted
Just now, apandersP said:

It looks similar to this one. Is it still the same principal? 
 

 

IMG_3828.jpeg

Yes its the same principle. 

Design of the hole in your watch,  is proof of the designers over excitement.

Above diag of mine is solid.

Just now, apandersP said:

Also recognized that the hair spring looks a bit odd? 

IMG_3829.png

What do you find odd about it? 

 Its not  an overcoil ,  Is it ? 

 As long as the coil of hairspring is flat, concentric,  level and circles are evenly spaced, you have a good coil.

You didn't choose an easy one to work on, but thats OK.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, apandersP said:

Hello again.. 

I just serviced this movement. First ever movement to service. 
I had it running pretty good (before regulated it) yesterday (see attached photo)

But of cause I forgot to put in the screw that secure the winding stem in place.. it’s placed under the bridge, and that bridge is a pain in the a$£ to set in. I took it apart again, and after reassembly it runs bad. It’s like it doesn’t take my winding. 
 

When I take the little metal piece (photo attached) that hold the mainspring winded, nothing happens. So I guess that’s a sign of maybe a bad mainspring? Only the upper wheel on the mainspring barrel is turning when winding, is that right? (Also photo attached) 

Watch is cleaned by hand in IPA and oiled. 

 

IMG_3813.jpeg

IMG_3823.jpeg

IMG_3822.jpeg

Do you have the auto works for this movement ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do you have the auto works for this movement ?

Yes. But that’s a whole other story. It seems like the mechanism that attaches it to the movement, is not working. It kind of a spring with a small lever to push down. 

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes its the same principle. 

Design of the hole in your watch,  is proof of the designers over excitement.

Above diag of mine is solid.

What do you find odd about it? 

 Its not  an overcoil ,  Is it ? 

 As long as the coil of hairspring is flat, concentric,  level and circles are evenly spaced, you have a good coil.

You didn't choose an easy one to work on, but thats OK.

 

 

Will get some better photos when I get home to the watch again. Just to be sure that it’s okay. Because that bridge for the train

of wheels is a pain to get back. And the mainspring barrel is under there😂

it’s not an easy movement, I found out of that working on it. Actually I don’t think it’s too hard, but I definitely need a lot more experience with trouble shooting and stuff like that. I was so happy when I’ve got that Timegrapher reading after servicing the watch. It was a total mess before I got into the watch. First watch serviced, so I was happy. But that happiness fast got away😂

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, apandersP said:

Yes. But that’s a whole other story. It seems like the mechanism that attaches it to the movement, is not working. It kind of a spring with a small lever to push down. 

Will get some better photos when I get home to the watch again. Just to be sure that it’s okay. Because that bridge for the train

of wheels is a pain to get back. And the mainspring barrel is under there😂

it’s not an easy movement, I found out of that working on it. Actually I don’t think it’s too hard, but I definitely need a lot more experience with trouble shooting and stuff like that. I was so happy when I’ve got that Timegrapher reading after servicing the watch. It was a total mess before I got into the watch. First watch serviced, so I was happy. But that happiness fast got away😂

What you have here is an interesting historical watch, the first two directional rotor automatic wind movement, known as the Bidynator. Be good to get this back up to working and keeping time. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
28 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What you have here is an interesting historical watch, the first two directional rotor automatic wind movement, known as the Bidynator. Be good to get this back up to working and keeping time. 

I’m trying the best I can. I will show more info and photos when I get back home, and hopefully I can find the issue, with help from the good people here 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, apandersP said:

Seems like anything is good. It might be me damaging the hairspring… 

I guess that’s how I learn😂

IMG_3830.jpeg

 Sorting out hairspring in place is not a good idea if your a beginner. Removing the balance complete ( if you feel confident) gives you a chance to see the coil, check pivots and make sure all is OK. 

Provide a side and top view of the hairspring coil, we might see faults that you now miss, and show you how to correct it.

Felsa made good movements, this is the first stupid design of theirs I ever saw. 

Had it been a standard ratchet wheel, your watch would be ticking now.

No worry, take your time , ask questions and let us work with you to fix your watch. 

Best wishes.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites
apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
59 minutes ago, rehajm said:

In situ the coils do not appear centered. Let’s see more pictures, preferably in and out of the watch if possible…

I can definitely take it out and take photos. Will do that Sunday. I had this movement completely apart for cleaning and lubrication. So that’s no problem taking out the balance.

i will post it here when it’s done 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Here is some photos. Please let me know if anything else is needed. 

IMG_3858.jpeg

IMG_3859.jpeg

IMG_3860.jpeg

IMG_3871.jpeg

IMG_3870.jpeg

IMG_3867.jpeg

On 9/13/2024 at 9:49 PM, Nucejoe said:

 Sorting out hairspring in place is not a good idea if your a beginner. Removing the balance complete ( if you feel confident) gives you a chance to see the coil, check pivots and make sure all is OK. 

Provide a side and top view of the hairspring coil, we might see faults that you now miss, and show you how to correct it.

Felsa made good movements, this is the first stupid design of theirs I ever saw. 

Had it been a standard ratchet wheel, your watch would be ticking now.

No worry, take your time , ask questions and let us work with you to fix your watch. 

Best wishes.


thanks so much! I posted some photos 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you saying the arbor hook comes out of the mainspring eye shortly after starting to wind ?

I think that’s the case. It also feels like it, when I got the barrel complete in my hand, and trying to wind the upper wheel. It feels like it grabs it in the start, but quickly stops grabbing again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

The problem with these is the arbor is part of the lid so you can't see how it interacts with the spring.

I've delt with a few that had the arbor integrated into the lid, from memory were Kienzle and Kasper so German movements. The ratchet may also have formed part of the whole assembly, not an impressive design, somewhat all wonkyfied. But yes a bit difficult to see whats going on inside in barrel .

Link to comment
Share on other sites
AndyGSi Distinguished Member

AndyGSi

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I've delt with a few that had the arbor integrated into the lid, from memory were Kienzle and Kasper so German movements. The ratchet may also have formed part of the whole assembly, not an impressive design, somewhat all wonkyfied. But yes a bit difficult to see whats going on inside in barrel .

Yes, lid, ratchet and arbor are all one piece.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
 Share
Go to topic listing


  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • ChrisInOz
      No images showing

      By ChrisInOz · Posted

      The post below contains the link. If you don't already have a discord account it will take you to the registration screen.  Registration is free.   https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/31653-mark/?do=findComment&comment=279066
    • luiazazrambo
      WWW Eterna sucked me in.

      By luiazazrambo · Posted

      HWGIKE#57 Valex FEF 190 15 jewels Swiss lever full service and repair This one was waiting for a balance staff replacement in my cabinet parts and case cleaned up with a new balance staff and a 4th wheel as the original 4th wheel had a broken pivot for the off center second hand. I never attempted a balance staff replacement before however I received a Bergeon Molfres (i was hunting it for about 2 years) and with the help of it I managed to remove the old staff and riveted the new one in. It also received a new MS, crystal and the hole for the MS arbor was also tightened. With the new MS now it has an acceptable performance meaning that the amplitude goes up to 280 fully wound, has an acceptable beat error and I have the two nice lines but only dial up, dial down is not as nice and I could not figure out as why. I have the two lines but the amplitude is dropping to around 230 and the lines are a bit hairy. Both dial up and dial down the lines just go up and down without seemingly any pattern. I cleaned the movement two times, and then a 3rd time pegged out the main plate and train bridge holes but made no change. Both the HS collet and the roller table was too lose on the new staff... I did not count how many times I took the balance cock off to sort out the HS collet, the roller table and the beat error, somebody before me also shortened the HS by pushing it out a bit and it seems every time somebody is messing with the end of the HS the protruding bit is most of the time twisted bent etc. This one was probably one of the most challenging repair and service. I might take the new MS out and clean it lubricate it as I just pushed the new one in to the barrel from the retaining ring. Plus started to re-read the theory of the escapement and how to analyse the graph on the timing machine: Greiner Chronografic Record manual. I am also thinking to put the watch on a 24 hour long run with the eTimer SW it once helped me to figure out what was wrong with a watch. There is an interesting part of the Greiner record manual talking about the pallets and the end shake of the balance and pallet staff. Maybe this is my issue? Who could that possibly identify? After a few years now I am still without a clue how could watchmakers make parts I can only see with my microscope or how could/can they carry out complicated services impossible to do.. real magic..... .... ..... before I sent this post while the pics were uploading I had an idea, i was browsing the possible outcomes on the timing machine I had one for magnetism..... so I demagnetized the movement and it is not hairy now.... two really nice lines 0.2 ms beat error still a bit wavy, but a lot lot better..... argh....  
    • Nucejoe
      Hello from Cypress, CA

      By Nucejoe · Posted

      Hi there, welcome here.  
    • JohnR725
      No images showing

      By JohnR725 · Posted

      yes the advertising revenue should generate money. The question is how much money? Then as far as the cost of the website goes that's relatively easy to determine? all you would have to do to grasp costs and profitability would be to go to the link below and you can actually get a website for free try it out for free I believe you get no advertising initially. They also talk about that they'll help you out they have marketing tools and some sort of paid subscription or something. So I guess were shopping for a whatever just ask them what would a maybe could use this one as an example in other words it's going to look basically identical to this is going to have advertising a paid subscriptions what's it going to cost? After all they want to sell or give us a message board like this they should bill answer the questions as they're the people who did the software for this. Yes they really said you can have a free discussion group at least to start. https://invisioncommunity.com/ I was curious about the monthly supporter thing where exactly do we find that on this message board? A quick search I'm not finding it so obviously I'm not looking in the right place?
    • Curare
      No images showing

      By Curare · Posted

      Help me out here, but with all the advertising on this site (which I don't mind) wouldn't it pay for itself or even make money for the owner ???
×
×
  • Create New...