Felsa 1560 - movement issue.

[apandersP]

Hello again.. 

I just serviced this movement. First ever movement to service. 
I had it running pretty good (before regulated it) yesterday (see attached photo)

But of cause I forgot to put in the screw that secure the winding stem in place.. it’s placed under the bridge, and that bridge is a pain in the a$£ to set in. I took it apart again, and after reassembly it runs bad. It’s like it doesn’t take my winding. 
 

When I take the little metal piece (photo attached) that hold the mainspring winded, nothing happens. So I guess that’s a sign of maybe a bad mainspring? Only the upper wheel on the mainspring barrel is turning when winding, is that right? (Also photo attached) 

Watch is cleaned by hand in IPA and oiled. 

 

[Nucejoe]

Check if ratchet wheel rubs on barrel bridge. 

Possible cause, 

Ratchet wheel's centre square hole ,dislodged from barrel arbour square shoulder. 

 

Edited September 13, 2024 by Nucejoe
correction

[apandersP]

10 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Check if ratchet wheel rubs on barrel bridge. 

Possible cause, 

Ratchet wheel's centre square hole ,dislodged from barrel arbour square shoulder. 

 

Så both should spin? While winding? This rachet wheel is a bit different than what else I’ve seen. 
 

[Nucejoe]

First image- Ratchet wheel's center hole is square.

Second image-Barrel arbour square shoulder too.

 

In your watch ratchet wheel has jumped out of place, therefor ratchet wheel has sat unlevel, thus ratchet  wheel rubs on barrel bridge.

Edited September 13, 2024 by Nucejoe
Adding explanation

[apandersP]

13 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

1- Ratchet wheel's center hole is square.

2-Barrel arbour square shoulder too, is square.

Should fit on right.

In your watch ratchet wheel has jumped out of place, therefor ratchet wheel has sat unlevel, thus the wheel rubs on barrel bridge.

It looks similar to this one. Is it still the same principal? 
 

 

Also recognized that the hair spring looks a bit odd? 

[Nucejoe]

Just now, apandersP said:

It looks similar to this one. Is it still the same principal? 
 

 

Yes its the same principle. 

Design of the hole in your watch,  is proof of the designers over excitement.

Above diag of mine is solid.

Just now, apandersP said:

Also recognized that the hair spring looks a bit odd? 

What do you find odd about it? 

 Its not  an overcoil ,  Is it ? 

 As long as the coil of hairspring is flat, concentric,  level and circles are evenly spaced, you have a good coil.

You didn't choose an easy one to work on, but thats OK.

 

 

[apandersP]

Seems like anything is good. It might be me damaging the hairspring… 

I guess that’s how I learn

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, apandersP said:

Hello again.. 

I just serviced this movement. First ever movement to service. 
I had it running pretty good (before regulated it) yesterday (see attached photo)

But of cause I forgot to put in the screw that secure the winding stem in place.. it’s placed under the bridge, and that bridge is a pain in the a$£ to set in. I took it apart again, and after reassembly it runs bad. It’s like it doesn’t take my winding. 
 

When I take the little metal piece (photo attached) that hold the mainspring winded, nothing happens. So I guess that’s a sign of maybe a bad mainspring? Only the upper wheel on the mainspring barrel is turning when winding, is that right? (Also photo attached) 

Watch is cleaned by hand in IPA and oiled. 

 

Do you have the auto works for this movement ?

[apandersP]

8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do you have the auto works for this movement ?

Yes. But that’s a whole other story. It seems like the mechanism that attaches it to the movement, is not working. It kind of a spring with a small lever to push down. 

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes its the same principle. 

Design of the hole in your watch,  is proof of the designers over excitement.

Above diag of mine is solid.

What do you find odd about it? 

 Its not  an overcoil ,  Is it ? 

 As long as the coil of hairspring is flat, concentric,  level and circles are evenly spaced, you have a good coil.

You didn't choose an easy one to work on, but thats OK.

 

 

Will get some better photos when I get home to the watch again. Just to be sure that it’s okay. Because that bridge for the train

of wheels is a pain to get back. And the mainspring barrel is under there

it’s not an easy movement, I found out of that working on it. Actually I don’t think it’s too hard, but I definitely need a lot more experience with trouble shooting and stuff like that. I was so happy when I’ve got that Timegrapher reading after servicing the watch. It was a total mess before I got into the watch. First watch serviced, so I was happy. But that happiness fast got away

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, apandersP said:

Yes. But that’s a whole other story. It seems like the mechanism that attaches it to the movement, is not working. It kind of a spring with a small lever to push down. 

Will get some better photos when I get home to the watch again. Just to be sure that it’s okay. Because that bridge for the train

of wheels is a pain to get back. And the mainspring barrel is under there

it’s not an easy movement, I found out of that working on it. Actually I don’t think it’s too hard, but I definitely need a lot more experience with trouble shooting and stuff like that. I was so happy when I’ve got that Timegrapher reading after servicing the watch. It was a total mess before I got into the watch. First watch serviced, so I was happy. But that happiness fast got away

What you have here is an interesting historical watch, the first two directional rotor automatic wind movement, known as the Bidynator. Be good to get this back up to working and keeping time. 

[apandersP]

28 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What you have here is an interesting historical watch, the first two directional rotor automatic wind movement, known as the Bidynator. Be good to get this back up to working and keeping time. 

I’m trying the best I can. I will show more info and photos when I get back home, and hopefully I can find the issue, with help from the good people here 

[Nucejoe]

4 minutes ago, apandersP said:

Seems like anything is good. It might be me damaging the hairspring… 

I guess that’s how I learn

 Sorting out hairspring in place is not a good idea if your a beginner. Removing the balance complete ( if you feel confident) gives you a chance to see the coil, check pivots and make sure all is OK. 

Provide a side and top view of the hairspring coil, we might see faults that you now miss, and show you how to correct it.

Felsa made good movements, this is the first stupid design of theirs I ever saw. 

Had it been a standard ratchet wheel, your watch would be ticking now.

No worry, take your time , ask questions and let us work with you to fix your watch. 

Best wishes.

[rehajm]

In situ the coils do not appear centered. Let’s see more pictures, preferably in and out of the watch if possible…

[apandersP]

59 minutes ago, rehajm said:

In situ the coils do not appear centered. Let’s see more pictures, preferably in and out of the watch if possible…

I can definitely take it out and take photos. Will do that Sunday. I had this movement completely apart for cleaning and lubrication. So that’s no problem taking out the balance.

i will post it here when it’s done 

[apandersP]

Here is some photos. Please let me know if anything else is needed. 

On 9/13/2024 at 9:49 PM, Nucejoe said:

 Sorting out hairspring in place is not a good idea if your a beginner. Removing the balance complete ( if you feel confident) gives you a chance to see the coil, check pivots and make sure all is OK. 

Provide a side and top view of the hairspring coil, we might see faults that you now miss, and show you how to correct it.

Felsa made good movements, this is the first stupid design of theirs I ever saw. 

Had it been a standard ratchet wheel, your watch would be ticking now.

No worry, take your time , ask questions and let us work with you to fix your watch. 

Best wishes.

thanks so much! I posted some photos 

[apandersP]

I think I know what it is now. I seems like a barrel issue. I can’t get the mainspring to catch on the harbor. It’s not tight against it. I can’t bend it into place, then it just expand out again.

[AndyGSi]

Is the pin on the arbor still OK?

[apandersP]

17 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Is the pin on the arbor still OK?

Looks like it. I’ve got two barrels. I will take photos later to show. It just seems like it will wind up a quarter of a turn, and then no more. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, apandersP said:

Looks like it. I’ve got two barrels. I will take photos later to show. It just seems like it will wind up a quarter of a turn, and then no more. 

Are you saying the arbor hook comes out of the mainspring eye shortly after starting to wind ?

[apandersP]

5 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you saying the arbor hook comes out of the mainspring eye shortly after starting to wind ?

I think that’s the case. It also feels like it, when I got the barrel complete in my hand, and trying to wind the upper wheel. It feels like it grabs it in the start, but quickly stops grabbing again. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, apandersP said:

I think that’s the case. It also feels like it, when I got the barrel complete in my hand, and trying to wind the upper wheel. It feels like it grabs it in the start, but quickly stops grabbing again. 

Can we have a picture of the barrel with the lid off please

[apandersP]

35 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Can we have a picture of the barrel with the lid off please

Of cause. I will send that, within a couple of hours 

[AndyGSi]

40 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Can we have a picture of the barrel with the lid off please

The problem with these is the arbor is part of the lid so you can't see how it interacts with the spring.

[Neverenoughwatches]

47 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

The problem with these is the arbor is part of the lid so you can't see how it interacts with the spring.

I've delt with a few that had the arbor integrated into the lid, from memory were Kienzle and Kasper so German movements. The ratchet may also have formed part of the whole assembly, not an impressive design, somewhat all wonkyfied. But yes a bit difficult to see whats going on inside in barrel .

[AndyGSi]

18 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I've delt with a few that had the arbor integrated into the lid, from memory were Kienzle and Kasper so German movements. The ratchet may also have formed part of the whole assembly, not an impressive design, somewhat all wonkyfied. But yes a bit difficult to see whats going on inside in barrel .

Yes, lid, ratchet and arbor are all one piece.