Pallets problem

[watchweasol]

Hi. OldHippy as promised the pallet problem. Vienna regulator was stored in the attic, aren’t they all and was brought in with the lines all tangled and the movement almost black , disassembled and cleaned several times to achieve today’s condition. It was reassembled and repairs effected, movement mounted and set up.  The second hand appeared to run uneven with the tick …..Tock. Jumping but running ok. Dismantled again and a close inspection of the anchor an pallets I found some body had been at the beat adjuster on thr crutch, subsequently repaired then looking at the pallets for chips etc I noticed that input pallet was normal but the exit has a double chamber.  All of the clocks I have worked on over the years not seen this before.   The clock when set up ( takes a bit of fiddling) runs but with the hiccup.  I would value your opinion  Old Hippy. Whether in your career did you encounter one like this and if so what’s the reason for the double face. 
There is a remnant of a mark but as yet unable to identify. Style wise looks like a Gustav Becker.

 

 

[rjenkinsgb]

The maker is probably H. Endler & Co.

Found in this thread:

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/post-your-h-endler-clocks-here.97792/#post-236048

 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, not OH but still can give some thoughts.

I don't understand the meaning of

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

the exit has a double chamber

Sorry, I am not English, know all the words, but still can't get the meaning. But what I see on the photo is that the exit pallet is not correctly sharpened. It needs good sharpening or shaping, then burnishing/polishing. 

The    tick....Tock sound as described and the uneven advancing of the second hand just point incorrect setting of the depth and (coverage?) of the escapement. Sorry, I here use 'coverage' as direct translation of Russian term 'охват', which is the needed Russian term for the case. But I am not sure if coverage is the correct word here...

The pallets must 'cover' whole number and a half teeth of the escape wheel. For example 7.5 or 9.5 or 12.5... I don't know the number, it is not important, but .5 after the whole part is. The 'coverage' is regulated by changing the distance between the escape wheel and the anchor (by moving the anchor bridge). Changing the distance affects the depth too. In anchors that 'cover' small amount of teeth, like 3.5, the distance almost doesn't affect the coverage, but strongly affects the depth. In reverse, in the anchors with big coverage, the distance almost doesn't affect the depth, but strongly affects coverage.  In anchors where the pallets are on diameter sides of the wheel, the distance doesn't affect the depth at all, but only affects the coverage, and extremely strong.

To have regular movement of the seconds hand, You need correct coverage. What it means? Well, when a tooth leaves one pallet, the another tooth tip will fall on the rest surface of the other pallet. It's tip will make small flight until it happens, the wheel will turn suddenly a little ahead and will stop. The same thing will happen again when this tooth leaves the impulse surface of the pallet and another tooth will meet the first pallet... The  free flights of the teeth before hitting the both pallets must be equal. If they are not, then the sound of the hitting on the one pallet (for ehamle the exit) will be louder than the other (entrance), this means the coverage is not correctly set. The coverage is correct when the free flights (and advancing of the wheel) to both pallets are equal. 

So, regulate the anchor bridge (the distance between the wheel and the anchor) until the correct coverage is reached. The depth of the escapment is regulated by moving the pallets in the slots here, not by moving the anchor bridge. The depth is correct when the tip of the tooth folls on the rest surface, just a little below the edge of the impulse surface (there must be drop lock on both pallets ) in this escapement.

[watchweasol]

Hi. Neven from your description of the problem matches my own thought#, I believe the coverage is  nine teeth  , no matter how you set the escapement as is you still get the un even tick ….tock.  The fact that the pallet has two surfaces begs the question which is the correct surface.  Whether it was made like this or has been cut by some repair person. Again we don’t know. Probably the reason it# been living in the attic.  Thanks for your thoughts and input Neven .

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi. OldHippy as promised the pallet problem. Vienna regulator was stored in the attic, aren’t they all and was brought in with the lines all tangled and the movement almost black , disassembled and cleaned several times to achieve today’s condition. It was reassembled and repairs effected, movement mounted and set up.  The second hand appeared to run uneven with the tick …..Tock. Jumping but running ok. Dismantled again and a close inspection of the anchor an pallets I found some body had been at the beat adjuster on thr crutch, subsequently repaired then looking at the pallets for chips etc I noticed that input pallet was normal but the exit has a double chamber.  All of the clocks I have worked on over the years not seen this before.   The clock when set up ( takes a bit of fiddling) runs but with the hiccup.  I would value your opinion  Old Hippy. Whether in your career did you encounter one like this and if so what’s the reason for the double face. 
There is a remnant of a mark but as yet unable to identify. Style wise looks like a Gustav Becker.

 

 

I have absolutely no idea about clocks but thought i would have a quick look to see what you were up to WW .Looks  interesting but I'm not ready for them just yet. I couldn't help but notice your shaving/dusting off brush, i litterally brought mine up to my watchroom a month ago for that exact same reason . It makes a nice change to see such a long standing well respected member working on something, it doesn't happen too often, love it.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

tick....Tock sound as described and the uneven advancin

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

escapement as is you still get the un even tick ….tock.

like a watch and clock has to be in beat both sides have to be the same. Your picture is very misleading because it definitely does not look symmetrical.

So exactly as a watch your palate stones which in this case are hard steel have to be in the right place and not correct technical term the pallet fork has to be in beat. Otherwise you get the uneven sounds. This is where if you have a clock timing machine typically they'll have a mode which measures this for those of us that are not good at hearing other than it sounds bad.

then your picture just makes it look really uneven and weird maybe it's an optical illusion. Oh and weird terminology versus a watch but usually the part going down to the pendulum can rotate on the shaft and that would knock out your alignment of the beat as that's how typically the beat is adjusted anyway. so basically do end up with the pallet fork no longer symmetrical with the arm and out of beat again.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

exit pallet is not correctly sharpened. It needs good sharpening or shaping, then burnishing/polishing. 

this is what he's talking about and yes it looks very very incorrect.

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

Hi John,

I believe that @watchweasol knows how to put the clock in beat. Usually, when not in beat, the sound is described as tik..tok...........tik..tok............tik..tok................ and one way this is rectified is by moving the down side of the clock case left or right, no mater if it will stay tilted.

By 'tik..Tok' I understand that tik is silent, and Tok is much louder, and what I have written concerns this case.

Edited September 17, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[watchweasol]

Hi guys.  I have a Horometer diagnostic tool which does analogue quartz, mechanical, watches and clocks. When fitted up it measures the pendulum swing giving beats PHour  and the twin track of dots regarding the beat error. 
With the clock running all beit uneven I can get it down to minus 70 secs a day. 
I think that the client will have to decide if she is happy as is or wants the full monte and the extra work involved reshaping and polishing the exit pallet.    The question is , who ground it off in the first place and why.  My understanding of Regulator pallets is that they are both the same profile and can be interchanged to compensate for wear.  I really appreciate your comments as they go along way to substa nciate my findings.   Thanks Rob for the link will have a look see, the punch mark is a bit vague.

[praezis]

10 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

this is what he's talking about and yes it looks very very incorrect.

Looks like the pallet was mounted reversed and we see the rear end?

Frank

[watchweasol]

Hi @rjenkinsgb  spot on.  H Endler, German. Thanks.

[JohnR725]

57 minutes ago, praezis said:

Looks like the pallet was mounted reversed and we see the rear end?

I was thinking about it later in the day and yes that was exact thought that I had.

[transporter]

My only input at the moment is to advise you to ditch the fishing line and put some gut line on instead, also what are the teeth like on the escape wheel? is there a short one or bent one, this could cause the hic cup you mention.

[watchweasol]

Hi. That’s a good point , mounted upside down , the back end is squared off with no chamfer on the edge, worth investigation.  It’s been running now for over 24 hrs  beat indicator is even on both sides of the swing, got some more to do on it later.  Thanks for the input.

[watchweasol]

Hi @transporter  the line is the purchased line not fishing line. Being an angler having done both trout ans sea. This stuff is waaaay too stiff tying a knot takes a time.  0.60 line transparent so as to be invisible when in use.  The escape wheel is 100 percent ok, checked out..the problem is the shape of the exit pallate causing the jump the clock runs perfectly well.  -73 secs a day .

[nevenbekriev]

No, the exit pallet is not upside down. It is just badly sharpened. The other side has no slope at all.

@watchweasol, see the picture I have drown in a hurry, it shows the shape of the pallets and the way they are made. The correct slope depends on the teeth count  and diameter of the escape wheel and the lenght of pendulum, but You still are able to use the entrance pallet for reference.

Of course, the pallets are not interchangeable, they are rather complementary.

[watchweasol]

Hi Neven. Thanks for the drawing , not upside down as the shape is roughly the same both ends. I believe like you said it needs re grinding and polishing.

 

[oldhippy]

It's a deadbeat escapement so it has no recoil, that means the seconds hand after it escapes doesn't go back a little. Getting this type of clock movement into beat can be tricky. You need to make sure it is level on the wall a small spirit level is handy it should have a scale attached to the case where the pendulum hangs down make sure the tip of the pendulum is in line, if it needs fine adjustment then you adjust the screw part at the bottom of the pallet rod. From the photo of the pallets they need cleaning up this can be done with a fine emery stick.  Someone has butchered the screws that hold the pallets. Try that and let me know. 

Edited September 18, 2024 by oldhippy

[watchweasol]

Hi Old Hippt, been through that routine. The pendulum rod lines up with the scale an the fine adjustment done. I have a two way spirit level  and back check that with a phone app . At the moment it’s up and running ok some fine adjustments to do. Many thanks for your input it is appreciated.

[oldhippy]

Nice to know it is working.