Hermle modern floating balance

[John777]

Good afternoon,

It is a recurring problem with this floating balance.

This time I installed a new floating balance as the old one was broken (see attachment).

The problem is with the rotation of the balance wheel, it doesn't even make 90 degrees on either side of the starting point.

I've been working on it for weeks, but I can't seem to get it right, I've tried everything, such as lowering the anchor pins or dropping them back into the anchor wheel.

Adjusted the fork forwards and backwards, of course I make sure that the long needle on the fork runs completely free, so no drag friction there.

At one point it reads a little more than 90 degrees on both sides, but when I check again the next day, it is again less than 90 degrees on both sides.

I have completely stripped the train of the running gear and there is absolutely no heavy point if I only turn 2 or 3 teeth of the ratchet wheel.

I hold the last gear (anchor wheel) very lightly with a spring, but it does not stop.

The 2 main springs have also been renewed.

Now my question to you is, what else could I do?

Thank you in advance for your cooperation in this lingering problem for me

Greetings from Rotterdam (The Netherlands).

ps. English is not my first language, so I hope it comes across clearly.

[oldhippy]

Is your picture the actual balance? Have you removed the balance and checked the tips and the cups it fits in. Have you cleaned the balance. What oil are you using.  

[nevenbekriev]

Hi John,

OH is right, what is on the picture is actually not floating balance and I guess that the one You have installed is not new. I will ask You to do the free oscillations test as it will show the condition of the balance tips and bearings, which are the main reason for lo amplitude in such balances.

[John777]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

Is your picture the actual balance? Have you removed the balance and checked the tips and the cups it fits in. Have you cleaned the balance. What oil are you using.  

Thank you for your response, it is a new unused balance. I haven't taken it apart, as it is new. I haven't oiled it either, as I can clearly see that it is oiled. Not exaggerated, but normal.

[John777]

17 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi John,

OH is right, what is on the picture is actually not floating balance and I guess that the one You have installed is not new. I will ask You to do the free oscillations test as it will show the condition of the balance tips and bearings, which are the main reason for lo amplitude in such balances.

Thanks for the response. Actually it is not a floating balance, you are absolutely right about that. This balance was sold to me as new, so I assume that for the time being, of course I can check with the seller on Monday. I have not done the free oscillations test yet. Would the same apply to this balance as to the REAL floating balance?

[nevenbekriev]

The results from free oscillations test would be similar to result of real floating balance when the downside bearing is OK. Just do the test and share the result - how many free oscillations to full stop after turning the balance to 180 degr and releasing.

[John777]

16 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

De resultaten van de vrije oscillatietest zouden vergelijkbaar zijn met de resultaten van een echte zwevende balans wanneer het neerwaartse lager in orde is. Doe gewoon de test en deel het resultaat - hoeveel vrije oscillaties tot volledige stop na het draaien van de balans naar 180 graden en loslaten.

I'll see if I can do this test tomorrow, otherwise it will be Monday morning.

Of course, I will let you know how long it has been running, coming to a stop.

[oldhippy]

Can you video the movement working so I can see the action of the balance. These movements are made of soft brass and steel, are the pivots all smooth and pivot holes. Can you tell me the oil you use. Are you sure you have the correct replacement springs. You need to check all this before you start playing around with the balance. Altering the pallets isn't recommended. 

[John777]

28 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Can you video the movement working so I can see the action of the balance. These movements are made of soft brass and steel, are the pivots all smooth and pivot holes. Can you tell me the oil you use. Are you sure you have the correct replacement springs. You need to check all this before you start playing around with the balance. Altering the pallets isn't recommended. 

Good morning Oldhippy,

Tomorrow I will post a video, because unfortunately I don't have much time today. To make it clear, you want to see the balance in action in the movement, or I'll do the rotation test.

Of course I can do both. The journals are highly polished and the new bushings are made of bearing bronze. After bushing, I tested each gear individually in the movement, all gears rotate without any resistance and of course the axial play between the platines was also taken into account. The oil I use is the following with its properties:

Synthetic oil for metal bearings, suitable for both high and low temperature applications. In addition, it is characterized by good corrosion protection properties for both brass and bronze bearings in combination with steel bearings.

Improved performance at high temperatures due to increased thermal stability.

Longer lifespan due to good anti-oxidation and stability during aging.

High reliability and maintenance-free use through lifelong lubrication.

Individual use thanks to good corrosion protection.

Energy savings due to low starting and turning torque.

Different applications due to adjusted oil viscosities.

No dangerous components.

Viscosity: 340 - 460 mPa·s

Colour: yellow.

Contents 30 ml.

[oldhippy]

The complete movement as well if possible front and back.  

[John777]

20 hours ago, oldhippy said:

The complete movement as well if possible front and back.  

Good afternoon, here are the 2 small videos of the floating balance in the timepiece.

After this I removed the floating balance and carefully placed it in a small vice to see how long it would rotate back and forth. the deflection before releasing the balance wheel was 270 degrees. I didn't have to wait long, because after 10 sec. he was already standing still.

In the past I have regularly had the real floating balances and they would fluctuate for minutes before they stopped. I'm afraid that with the flat balance spring the whole thing moves much heavier, so the stiffness of the balance spring has a major influence on the whole and this 'new' one should not actually be compared with the old one. But that's my humble opinion.

OOPS, I just wanted to upload the 2 videos, but I can't, because it doesn't appear in the list,  jpg, jpeg, png, gif, pdf, tiff, heif, rtf

[AndyGSi]

12 minutes ago, John777 said:

Good afternoon, here are the 2 small videos of the floating balance in the timepiece.

After this I removed the floating balance and carefully placed it in a small vice to see how long it would rotate back and forth. the deflection before releasing the balance wheel was 270 degrees. I didn't have to wait long, because after 10 sec. he was already standing still.

In the past I have regularly had the real floating balances and they would fluctuate for minutes before they stopped. I'm afraid that with the flat balance spring the whole thing moves much heavier, so the stiffness of the balance spring has a major influence on the whole and this 'new' one should not actually be compared with the old one. But that's my humble opinion.

OOPS, I just wanted to upload the 2 videos, but I can't, because it doesn't appear in the list,  jpg, jpeg, png, gif, pdf, tiff, heif, rtf

You have to upload to a video hosting site and then post the link.

[John777]

56 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

You have to upload to a video hosting site and then post the link.

Hell of a job, but it worked.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oWGNgjF6-EE

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ufRKkFKj9hc

[John777]

1 hour ago, John777 said:

Good afternoon, here are the 2 small videos of the floating balance in the timepiece.

After this I removed the floating balance and carefully placed it in a small vice to see how long it would rotate back and forth. the deflection before releasing the balance wheel was 270 degrees. I didn't have to wait long, because after 10 sec. he was already standing still.

In the past I have regularly had the real floating balances and they would fluctuate for minutes before they stopped. I'm afraid that with the flat balance spring the whole thing moves much heavier, so the stiffness of the balance spring has a major influence on the whole and this 'new' one should not actually be compared with the old one. But that's my humble opinion.

OOPS, I just wanted to upload the 2 videos, but I can't, because it doesn't appear in the list,  jpg, jpeg, png, gif, pdf, tiff, heif, rtf

Hi, I just posted the 2 links of the videos

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oWGNgjF6-EE

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ufRKkFKj9hc

[oldhippy]

The pallets look a bit bent and I do not like the shallow entry and exit, the reason the swing is bad is because of two impulse pins. Have you oiled the pallet pivots. Is that spring rubbing on the pallet pivot releasing the tension might help. I don't see any oil on the escape wheel. What was the action like before. It might be you have a bad complete balance. I know you have done your best with the video but it doesn't tell me much. On a full wind is just the same. 

[nevenbekriev]

20 hours ago, John777 said:

...After this I removed the floating balance and carefully placed it in a small vice to see how long it would rotate back and forth. the deflection before releasing the balance wheel was 270 degrees. I didn't have to wait long, because after 10 sec. he was already standing still.

In the past I have regularly had the real floating balances and they would fluctuate for minutes before they stopped. I'm afraid that with the flat balance spring the whole thing moves much heavier, so the stiffness of the balance spring has a major influence on the whole and this 'new' one should not actually be compared with the old one. But that's my humble opinion.

10 sec is short time. You need at leas 100 free oscillations if initial deflection is 180 degr. All this means the down side balance bearing is badly worn, nothing to do with the hairspring. The first what You need to do is to restore the bearing and confirm this with good free oscillations result. We need to know what type the bearing is. Take the balance off and show the tip, and the bearing too. Then advice how to proceed will follow.

[praezis]

I still cannot see what kind of bearing this balance wheel has.

A cup bearing?

Or as supposed in the header: a floating balance bearing? Rather looks so. Then the staff is a tube with 2 inserted jewels, on top and bottom end, they ride on a thin steel wire. 
But something has to keep the balance „floating“, magnets or a special cylindrical hairspring.

Frank

[John777]

5 hours ago, praezis said:

Ik kan nog steeds niet zien wat voor lager dit balanswiel heeft.

Een bekerlager?

Of zoals in de header wordt verondersteld: een zwevend balanslager? Lijkt er eerder op. Dan is de staf een buis met 2 ingebrachte juwelen, aan de boven- en onderkant rijden ze op een dunne staaldraad. 
Maar er moet iets zijn dat de balans „zwevend“ houdt, magneten of een speciale cilindrische spiraalveer.

Frank

Hi, just saw your response, I am brand new to this forum and I don't really know how it all works yet. I just called where I bought this balance and they assured me that this balance is new, so unused. He also told me that the axle of the balance wheel is mounted on both sides like a gear in a clock. Your drawing seems to me to be a much better solution that it is mounted in a pan. The problem is, taking it apart. The locking screw on top of the balance is secured with paint. If I mess this up it will cost me another €75. What I did do was remove the balance from the clock and carefully clamp it in the vice. Then turned it 270 degrees and saw how long it lasted before coming to a standstill. That was quite fast, namely 10 seconds. The shaft has approximately 0.2 mm axial (upper air) clearance.

[John777]

23 hours ago, oldhippy said:

De pallets zien er een beetje krom uit en ik vind de ondiepe in- en uitgang niet mooi, de reden dat de swing slecht is, zijn twee impulspennen. Heb je de palletdraaipunten geolied? Wrijft die veer over het palletdraaipunt waardoor de spanning wordt losgelaten? Ik zie geen olie op het ankerwiel. Hoe was de actie hiervoor? Het kan zijn dat je een slechte volledige balans hebt. Ik weet dat je je best hebt gedaan met de video, maar het vertelt me niet veel. Op een volle wind is het precies hetzelfde. 

Hi, I most likely found the cause yesterday. It is a brand new 'floating Balance', but it was not good. Last night I carefully disassembled this balance, and it turned out that the top tap was crooked. The thickness of this tap is 0.23 mm, I completely aligned it to 0 on a lathe. The bottom tap was good. I put the whole thing back together, and it immediately felt better, the balance wheel was immediately much more mobile. I reinstalled the balance in the clock and the reading is much better, about 100 degrees on both sides. I watched this for 1 minute, because it was closing time. I'll go back to my workshop later and check whether the rash has got bigger. I have lightly oiled the anchor wheel, but not the fork yet. The sound is also better on both sides, as it was a bit out of time. Please note that I have to translate my Dutch into English and hope that it comes across well/clearly. The supplier (**BLEEP** of a person) says it's my fault and won't exchange these things, customer's risk. When I took this balance apart, I noticed that even though the pins are so thin, they cannot bend as a sleeve protects them. Everything is possible, of course, but you have to exert force. This balance was not checked when it was newly assembled. Of course, I'll let you know how he does today.

[John777]

On 24-9-2024 at 09:12, nevenbekriev said:

10 sec is kort. Je hebt minstens 100 vrije oscillaties nodig als de initiële afbuiging 180 graden is. Dit alles betekent dat het balanslager aan de onderkant erg versleten is, het heeft niets te maken met de spiraalveer. Het eerste wat je moet doen is het lager herstellen en dit bevestigen met een goed resultaat van vrije oscillaties. We moeten weten wat voor type lager het is. Haal de balans eraf en laat de punt zien, en ook het lager. Dan volgt advies over hoe verder te gaan.

Hi, this is the construction of the bottom bearing, upon inspection it was perfect. However, the top pin was bent. Very strange because it is also protected by a kind of tube.

The result yesterday when I closed my workshop was 100 degrees on both sides. I'm curious to see what it will be like when I get back to the workshop, but I certainly don't expect it to have diminished again.

[John777]

6 hours ago, John777 said:

Hi, this is the construction of the bottom bearing, upon inspection it was perfect. However, the top pin was bent. Very strange because it is also protected by a kind of tube.

The result yesterday when I closed my workshop was 100 degrees on both sides. I'm curious to see what it will be like when I get back to the workshop, but I certainly don't expect it to have diminished again.

 

On 9/24/2024 at 9:01 AM, oldhippy said:

The pallets look a bit bent and I do not like the shallow entry and exit, the reason the swing is bad is because of two impulse pins. Have you oiled the pallet pivots. Is that spring rubbing on the pallet pivot releasing the tension might help. I don't see any oil on the escape wheel. What was the action like before. It might be you have a bad complete balance. I know you have done your best with the video but it doesn't tell me much. On a full wind is just the same. 

The balance works very well after disassembly and tap correction. This morning when I entered the workshop it had an amplitude of almost 180 degrees on each side. I spent so much time on this balance even though it was not good upon delivery. I've never taken one of these apart before, but if you're careful it's definitely worth it, which is how I discovered that the top trunnion was crooked. Then it is necessary to be careful to get it right again. If I had to design such a balance, the taps would be slightly hardened. Luckily these weren't, otherwise they would have just been broken off. I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to assist me with advice and assistance.

[oldhippy]

So it was faulty to start with. With new parts you expect it to have been tested before dispatch. Hermle do not make good quality movements, as I have said the brass and steel are soft, you won't find one in 40 years.