Caravelle 11DP issues

[MAX1974]

Hi All,

I'm curious if people have specific thoughts, experiences, or tips for working on the Caravelle 11DP.  I have done most of my learning so far on the AS1686 (for better or worse), and have built/serviced a few of those to solid performance.  I have since been going through a similar path with the Caravelle 11DP, but it's been quite a different experience.  I have tons of questions, but will put out these three here in hopes that replies might surface some help.

The first one is - is there a specific movement holder, or movement holder strategy that you use for this movement? 

From the start I've found the 11DP a little more challenging to get securely set up in my movement holder, especially in dial-up. Most commonly I'm using a Bergeon 4039, but I've also been experimenting with some of my other lesser quality holders.  There seem to be way fewer points around the circumference of the movement that are uniform, especially compared to the 1686, and the other night I began to develop a theory that I may even be inadvertently bending some pivots (balance especially) due to the holder grabbing onto the movement in bad ways, like contacting the train bridge or some other bridge or cock instead of the baseplate.  The a-ha moment was when I was getting ready to oil the bottom cap jewel the other night (while the watch was running) and I noticed the balance stop once I put the final bit of rotation on the knob.  To be clear the holder wasn't in contact with the balance wheel, it was just the tension.  Sure enough, once I got the jewels off, I could see that pivot flopping in the hole once the balance got moving again.

Another one is - would it be crazy/terrible/wrong to try to fix the cap jewel springs to the cap jewel with a teeny-tiny-nano-sized droplet or two of adhesive?  In working with a bunch of these I've gotten from Ebay, I've noticed that sometimes the spring is kind of stuck to the jewel, whereas on others it's of course "free" to jump and tiddlywink around in all the worst ways, causing me to guard the "stuck" ones carefully and sing with glee if I disassemble and find one that's blessedly kind of stuck.  Tweezer skills, I know.  But this seems like something that could smooth out a lot of headache with minimal risk if you got it right.

Finally -- one thing that's kind of unmistakable is just the general materials difference between the Caravelle/Citizen and the AS parts.  Many are the same (milled, presumably?) as what we see on the AS, while others seem like they are made of cheaper material.  I'm wondering what implications this has for cleaning.  A frustrating bit is that while I have worked myself and my procedures up to a point where I can reliably "do" an AS1686, the 11DP journey has included far more iterations where I disassemble, inspect, clean, etc. and things come out just fine on the other side, with the exception of the dreaded middling to low amplitude.  I've been having some improvement with using those little green pivot polisher sticks that Alex recommends and hand cleaning all the pivots, but I'm wondering if there's just some kind of stubborn oxidation or similar process affecting all the parts that my strategy of Naptha, IPA, IPA, in jars in the ultrasonic is just not breaking through in some very subtle ways.

Any tips or suggestions in the vein of "what you'll find in switching from the AS1686 to the 11DP is..." would be much appreciated!

Thanks for considering!

MAX

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, MAX1974 said:

would it be crazy/terrible/wrong to try to fix the cap jewel springs to the cap jewel with a teeny-tiny-nano-sized droplet or two of adhesive?  

 Absolutely no adhesive.

Ever wonder why glued ones are for sale? On ebay or else?  Someone had thought of gluing as a quick fix, look where the watch ended up, FOR SALE ON EBAY.

 You are learning an art so fix each watch as though a patek phillip.

Rgds

[MAX1974]

Fair Point, Nucejoe.  Though for the record there is no observable or detectable adhesive on the ones I have where the clip just stays on the jewel, I think they are just somehow fused there over time.  One in particular has been cleaned, oiled, installed, cleaned, oiled, etc. maybe 4-5 times but the clip and cap jewel continue to behave like a single piece.  But I have definitely had one or two that have become un-stuck after a bath/cleaning in hexane.

These Caravelle shock springs are definitely a great teacher of care and patience.  Gives me so much appreciation for other styles where the spring/clip is either affixed to the cock (like on most of the AS ones) or definitely integrated into the setting (as in the other ones you see on the AS movements with the three little tabs).

And thank you for the good advice on treating them all with the highest respect and remembering that this is an art.  As I did with the 1686, I've been trying to focus on movements that are decent quality, but that you can still get in reasonably decent condition for $30 US, give or take.  I've collected maybe about a dozen 11DPs of varying quality, and I believe that having so many, along with my impressions about the materials, probably has led me to treat them a little too casually.  This hobby is definitely not for the impatient, and that's one of my favorite things about it.

[ManSkirtBrew]

23 hours ago, MAX1974 said:

From the start I've found the 11DP a little more challenging to get securely set up in my movement holder

I only have a short video of it in dial-down, but maybe it'll be helpful.

 

 

23 hours ago, MAX1974 said:

would it be crazy/terrible/wrong to try to fix the cap jewel springs to the cap jewel with a teeny-tiny-nano-sized droplet or two of adhesive?

Not crazy, but a bad idea. They need to be separate to work properly and for cleaning and lubrication purposes. If your 11DP is like mine, I assume they look like these:

 

It's an unusual system where the cap jewel is fixed and the hole jewel is allowed to float. If you glue them together it kind of defeats the purpose.

It's also spectacularly bad watchmaking practice.

23 hours ago, MAX1974 said:

my strategy of Naptha, IPA, IPA, in jars in the ultrasonic

I also started with naptha (the Zippo black can, which is supposed to be a cleaner/more pure version of normal lighter fluid). A couple years ago I switched to L&R #566 followed by L&R #3 rinse in the ultrasonic, and I have to say the difference in how clean my parts get is absolutely night and day.

I found with the naptha I really need to get in there with a brush and do more mechanical cleaning. The L&R is more expensive, but I will never go back.

23 hours ago, MAX1974 said:

"what you'll find in switching from the AS1686 to the 11DP is..."

Other than the odd shock settings, I don't think much. I'm not personally familiar with the AS1686, but I can tell you that every watch I've worked on has had its own personality, and much of the fun is discovering the quirks.

EDIT: I just looked it up, and a pair of 12oz Zippo cans from Amazon go for $12. A gallon of L&R566 is $66. That's $0.50 and $0.52 per ounce, respectively.

Edited September 25, 2024 by ManSkirtBrew

[MAX1974]

Thanks so much, ManSkirtBrew. 

The orientation of the movement in your holder in the video makes a lot of sense -- and is basically 90 degrees different from how I've been doing it both DU and DD.  I will definitely be switching this up.  Makes total sense to stay far away from trying to grip it on that part where it's really open by the balance wheel.

On the cap jewel thing - while I am thoroughly disabused of my literally krazy glue idea, I should say that I'm just talking about the cap jewel and spring.  In your picture, it looks like you have one of the ones I'm talking about where the spring (with the two tabs) stays with the jewel.   

I will also give the L&R solutions a try.  While I wait for shipping, I'm also going to try some Liquinox solution followed by IPA baths to displace the water.  Saw a cool Alex Hamilton video where he recommends it and it's super inexpensive.  Curious if anyone else has tried this.

Most of all, what is starting to set in to me is something you put really well in terms of each of these having their own personality.  I'm also starting to wonder about my standards.  The first or second one I fully put through cleaning, reassembly, oiling, etc. ended up with horizontal amplitudes around the 250-260 zone, and it was a bit above 200 in the verticals.  Coming off of a great run with my last 1686 where I was able to get it to like 300 horizontals and a super pleasing 230-240 in the verticals. I thought for sure I could do better, especially given that these are newer and more modern (if a little cheap seeming on some materials), and tore it down right away, and then proceeded to plug away trying to improve on that and getting frustrated with similar or lesser results. 

In many ways the journey is the destination. 

Thanks so much for your thoughts and tips.

[GuyMontag]

1 hour ago, MAX1974 said:

 

On the cap jewel thing - while I am thoroughly disabused of my literally krazy glue idea, I should say that I'm just talking about the cap jewel and spring.  In your picture, it looks like you have one of the ones I'm talking about where the spring (with the two tabs) stays with the jewel.   

I wi

The 11DP uses Parashock shock protection. The cap jewel is fixed to the setting which has a spring. That spring shouldn't come loose, but I have had it happen to me once. It's possible that you may be able to press the spring back onto the setting. Attached is a tech sheet discussing the shock system for the 11DP (Citizen 0241). Note that there is an orientation to the hole jewel, the side with the jewel sitting proud of the spring faces up.



I've also noticed that the movement isn't as easy to fix in the holder dial side up as it is dial down. Below is how I orient mine. There was some other issues discussed regarding the 11DP in this thread which you may find useful.




 

Bulova_11DP_TECH_1971-11.pdf

Edited September 25, 2024 by GuyMontag