Just won't run after cleaning - Waltham 8 days - Car Watch

[Dmitry]

Hello,

I have a supersized Waltham 8 Day Model 1910 car watch. I mounted it on an improvised dash and it was brightening up my day on my desk. One day winding stopped working. I took it apart, washed the parts and put it back tobether with proper lubrication, but, oh horror - it did not spring back to life! It wants to go, but it feels as though something is not quite giving it enough power.

When I remove the pallet form and give it just a bit of a wind, the train spins nicely, even with just a bit of a touch to either of the two mainspring barrels - yep, it has two!

Then with the removed pallet form I mount the balance wheel and it spins nicely back and forth with good amplitude.

However, when I put the pallet form back together, with a few turns on the wind the fork snaps back and forth with a bit of a touch, just as it should, but when I put the balance wheel back in, the escape wheel just does not advance, as though there is not enough power in the train, although I know there is. As soon as I take the pallet fork out, the train starts spinning with a whine. The pallet fork was the only part I have not cleaned or touched when servicing the movement, so I am at a loss here.

One more observation - when I push the minute wheel jently to apply more pressure to the train, the balance wheel start working just as it should, but when I let go, it loses power and stops advancing the escape wheel.

I have recorded a brief video with the microscope of what is going on.

First I show how the escape wheel just does nto advance, and at about 16 seconds I push the minute wheel to get it all going, os it loses power and stops advancing the escape wheel.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!ArG5E62RGctxjsxdA7PBWVk7juMiwQ?e=qJNFuQ

Thank you for any suggestions.

[spectre6000]

I can't back it up, but my feels say pallet jewel wandered a bit in the wash, and you need to check your pallet jewel depthing. The exit jewel there looks a bit shallow. Could be the angle of the video. Could be I have no idea what I'm talking about. That's just what my eye sees from that video and what I'd be looking closer at if it were on my desk here.

[Dmitry]

I thought so too in the beginning, but the stones seem right, I will take a picture later tonight and post. I wonder if the limiting pins might have shifted when in the ultrasonic cleaner, thus reducing the range for the pallet fork, but it seems unlikely. Can it be one of the barrels, just not giving enough power, so the fork swings, but not enough for the balance to continue? Similar to how it might be the case if the mainspring is too thin?

[mbwatch]

I also suspect an issue with the pallet exit stone. Remove the pallet fork and check to see if there is any remaining shellac on the underside. If all the shellac is gone, (which is not uncommon on old watches, even as you didn't clean the fork this time) it's easily possible that pallet jewel shifted while the fork was being reinstalled.

Another possibility is the banking pins were moved. Does your movement have banking pins adjustable by screws on the mainplate? That would be typical of a Waltham movement. A change to the banking pins would absolutely cause issues with locking on the escape wheel and prevent it from advancing with a normal amount of mainspring power.

There be dragons though - adjusting banking pins is very difficult and I have only ever succeeded through trial & error, usually only making things worse.

[Dmitry]

Will check for shellac, thank you, and I ABSOLUTELY do not want to even touch the banking pins indeed.

[nevenbekriev]

Dmitry, the other possible reason is that the bearings of the escape wheel has worn and as a result, the escape wheel has shifted towards the pallet fork - just a little, but enough to cause the problem, effectively the depth of the escapement is increased and run to the banking in exit pallet is missing. Do not search for other reasons, the problem is in escapement.

[spectre6000]

On 10/1/2024 at 7:02 AM, Dmitry said:

Can it be one of the barrels, just not giving enough power, so the fork swings, but not enough for the balance to continue? Similar to how it might be the case if the mainspring is too thin?

If the spring(s) in the barrel(s) was weak, it would just be like a low state of wind. It would still run, just not as long as it should and/or with lower amplitude.

[Dmitry]

On 10/1/2024 at 3:42 PM, nevenbekriev said:

Dmitry, the other possible reason is that the bearings of the escape wheel has worn and as a result, the escape wheel has shifted towards the pallet fork - just a little, but enough to cause the problem, effectively the depth of the escapement is increased and run to the banking in exit pallet is missing. Do not search for other reasons, the problem is in escapement.

Here is a video where I zoom in on the escape wheel and am trying to lift it up and shake side to side to see if there is indeed any play. There is plenty of shake up and down, but almost no side shake. I was cleaning the watch with the wheels out, so  it is unlikely in my opinion that the whole got larger to create excessive sideshake.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!ArG5E62RGctxjs0zPg6F3hC2JjfolQ?e=vpJGyb

Here are close-up pictures of the pallet fork and the balance. Does anything look out of ordinary to you?

[mbwatch]

The fork looks okay and I think I see shellac behind the stones so they have probably not moved. I would examine the banking pins very closely next.

[Neverenoughwatches]

As it appears the lever is the naughty one here. The pallet fork ( lever ) has 2 ends that both need to interact with their playmates in a nice way. For one the pallet end must play nicely with the escape wheel, if the stones are locking and releasing as they should then suspect that the lever is misbehaving with it's other buddy the balance. As you have mentioned excessive end shake in the lever........how does the fork'a height lay with the balance's impulse pin ? Are THEY playing nicely or are they rubbing one n other up the wrong way ?

As is " Making the right Connection " a key element to a successful business this also applies to repairing watches. Using the word " RIGHT " describes and encompasses all scenarios.  A Good connection,  a Modest connection or a Non connection.  The right connection must fit the right scenario. 

[CYCLOPS]

make sure the pallet guard finger [on the fork side] didn't get bent .....you said all worked fine separately 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, CYCLOPS said:

make sure the pallet guard finger [on the fork side] didn't get bent .....you said all worked fine separately 

Sounds like the gaurd dart or impulse pin are at foul play today . Connections connections its all about Connections. 

[nickelsilver]

You should really do a systematic check of the escapement function. I wrote this up a while back, it covers the steps.

 

 

[VWatchie]

On 10/1/2024 at 5:07 AM, Dmitry said:

The pallet fork was the only part I have not cleaned or touched when servicing the movement, so I am at a loss here.

Is the following so obvious it's not worth mentioning? Maybe. Nevertheless!

Should we understand that as you never lubricated the impulse surfaces of the pallet stones? Lubricating the impulse surfaces can make a dramatic difference.

I would clean the pallet fork (peg between the fork horns) and properly lubricate the pallets. I would also re-clean the escape wheel and the balance to make sure the dirty pallets didn't contaminate them.

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Dmitry,

First, a little theory needed here. I will try to present the theory in a little different way, hoping this way is easier to understand it.

Look at this drawings:

The angle AOD on the first one represents the whole angular movement of pallet fork tail from one banking pin to the other. In the beginning, the tail is in point A, which is shown as "I" on the second drawing.

Angle AOB is the rest angle. If moved to the green area, before point B, and then released, the tail will return to A by itself.

If the tail is moved past point B to the red area (point B is corresponding to "II" in second drawing) and released, it will snap to the other banking pin by itself. The red area (angle BOC) is impulse angle.

The important moment here now is the point C, corresponding to "IV". You will see on "IV" that the tail is not touching the banking pin. This is very important. In the moment when the tail leaves point C and enters the thinny blue area, the tooth "a" leaves the pallet "A" and the tooth "в" falls on pallet "Б" as shown in "V".

The movement of the tail from points C to D is RUN TO THE BANKING.  Movement C-D and the thinny blue area  MUST exist and this is very important.

What happens in You case is that 'Run to the banking' in the exit pallet is close to 0. If we look at the second drawing, this is like IV and VI to coincider and in the first drawing - the blue area to not exist. The tail to be already rested on the banking pin, but the tip of the tooth а can't leave the edge of pallet A and there for tooth в can't fall on pallet Б. Of course, this happens only on one or two teeth of the escape wheel, which are higher than the others. And, the drawing is for the entrance pallet, but the problem in You case is with the exit pallet.

As I already said, the easiest way to make the watch work is to open a little the banking pin as to allow some healthful 'run to the banking'. I understand that You don't want to bodge with the escapement, but You have to understand that this is what is needed here.

What i saw on the last video... See, You show actually nothing helpful. Just endless jerking the brass table of the escape wheel with steel tweezers. This can only hurt the escape wheel teeth, which is something not wanted. The correct and simple way to look for wear of a bearing is to give some force to the wheels repeatedly  in forward/reverse direction and see if the pivot moves. Then, the bearing that is actually  interesting is not seen in the video, this is the main plate bearing.

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Is the following so obvious it's not worth mentioning? Maybe. Nevertheless!

Should we understand that as you never lubricated the impulse surfaces of the pallet stones? Lubricating the impulse surfaces can make a dramatic difference.

I would clean the pallet fork (peg between the fork horns) and properly lubricate the pallets. I would also re-clean the escape wheel and the balance to make sure the dirty pallets didn't contaminate them.

I would go along with being clean, sticky pivots ,stones, escape teeth, fork and impulse pin could hold back releasing energy. I dont get concerned about escapement lubrication so much and often leave that for last....after initial tg testing.

[Dmitry]

@nevenbekriev - this is probably the most comprehensive description of escapement adjustment I have ever seen. Thank you! I need to do my experimentation and homework now. May I ask where this illustration was copied from, seems to be a very useful book on watchmaking I shall add to my library.

 

[nevenbekriev]

1 minute ago, Dmitry said:

@nevenbekriev - this is probably the most comprehensive description of escapement adjustment I have ever seen. Thank you! I need to do my experimentation and homework now. May I ask where this illustration was copied from, seems to be a very useful book on watchmaking I shall add to my library.

 

I have asked You if You speak Russian. This is because of You name, but it doesn't mean that one have to speak Russian if He has Russian name. The book is Russian one - Пинкин - Ремонт часов. Actually, You can download for free all Russian watchmaker textbooks from the Russian sites as German 242 or Watch.ru.

[CYCLOPS]

the illustrations are great but this watch is showing a single roller so a little different set-up....pallet and roller are different than a double-roller

[JohnR725]

16 hours ago, Dmitry said:

escapement adjustment

there's all sorts of information on escapement adjusting for instance here's a peculiar handout. Peculiar in that it's basically a whole bunch a handouts that were combined together into one. Including a handout that came from a lecture that is on YouTube although it's a little hard to follow with the audio.

On 9/30/2024 at 8:07 PM, Dmitry said:

One day winding stopped working.

then as reading backwards through the discussion seeing all sorts of interesting suggestions including moving the banking pins and the jewels of the escapement and I get the original message what I'm quoting something above. The watch was working fine and then one day it stopped working. Which means the banking pins probably didn't get moved along the stuff probably didn't get moved unless you that creative in your repair process?

On 9/30/2024 at 8:07 PM, Dmitry said:

Waltham 8 Day Model 1910 car watch

one of the thing is always helpful in a discussion like this would be to show a picture of the timepiece. Because a sizable percentage of the people fortunately have never seen this thing before.

On 10/1/2024 at 12:42 PM, nevenbekriev said:

the other possible reason is that the bearings of the escape wheel has worn

this comes back to the problem that I quoted above of not actually seeing which version this is. I'd have to go look in the parts book but I think the basic version is seven jewels and there may have been some versions with more jewels. But a seven jewel version will have unfortunate issues of things wearing out. Where basically cleaning will not fix the problem

On 9/30/2024 at 8:07 PM, Dmitry said:

Waltham 8 Day Model 1910 car watch

 

Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf

[VWatchie]

On 10/3/2024 at 5:40 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

I dont get concerned about escapement lubrication so much and often leave that for last....after initial tg testing.

What do you get from testing the movement on your TG if you don't lubricate the pallets?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

What do you get from testing the movement on your TG if you don't lubricate the pallets?

Just a simple check H , some experimentation to see the improvement stone lubrication makes. I use more than one oil/grease depending on the movement, keeping in mind i have an affinity for pin pallet movements. 

[Dmitry]

I have finally gotten back to the watch and before starting to play with the banking pins, I decided to disassemble and clean it once again.

And this is when I found the broken pivot of the third wheel (I think it is the third, as the synchronizing wheel between the two barrels probably does not count).

Here is the picture of the broken pivot and the whole the wheel goes into. The fourth wheel and escape wheel have a dedicated bridge.

Ebay searches did not yield anything for this 37S Model 1910 Grade 8 day Waltham. I have a Waltham catalog, but it only goes to model 1907.

Can anyone please share the catalog pages for the 1910 model? I wonder if the part is somewhat interchangeable, thus increasing my chances of finding it. If you know what that part is, even better, I wonder if there are other models that have that same wheel, but with the S37 size it is unlikely.

As I mentioned in the beginning, the watch wants to run, but behaved as though it did not have enough power, and with the broken pivot it was moving when more force was applied, so now I hope that after replacing the wheel my escapement is OK after all. I even compared the picture I took before taking it apart, and the pin screws are in the same position, so they have not moved.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Dmitry said:

I have finally gotten back to the watch and before starting to play with the banking pins, I decided to disassemble and clean it once again.

And this is when I found the broken pivot of the third wheel (I think it is the third, as the synchronizing wheel between the two barrels probably does not count).

Here is the picture of the broken pivot and the whole the wheel goes into. The fourth wheel and escape wheel have a dedicated bridge.

Ebay searches did not yield anything for this 37S Model 1910 Grade 8 day Waltham. I have a Waltham catalog, but it only goes to model 1907.

Can anyone please share the catalog pages for the 1910 model? I wonder if the part is somewhat interchangeable, thus increasing my chances of finding it. If you know what that part is, even better, I wonder if there are other models that have that same wheel, but with the S37 size it is unlikely.

As I mentioned in the beginning, the watch wants to run, but behaved as though it did not have enough power, and with the broken pivot it was moving when more force was applied, so now I hope that after replacing the wheel my escapement is OK after all. I even compared the picture I took before taking it apart, and the pin screws are in the same position, so they have not moved.

Repivotting is an option but you'll need the tools and a lathe

[rjenkinsgb]

3 hours ago, Dmitry said:

Can anyone please share the catalog pages for the 1910 model?

There is a 1940 parts catalog  viewable via this page, though it's not downloadable and a real pain to read..

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/reference/catalogs

 

I found an alternate link with direct access to each section, this is the Automobile & 8 day link:

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/company/waltham/catalogs/waltham-watch-co-material-catalog-1940/40

 

 

So, looking up the part number of the third wheel in that online link - it is listed in the 1911 catalog that only shows movements up to 1907...

If you search through it, there are dozens of entries for the 8 day 37s!

See the "Wheels" section on page 19 onward of the PDF - the first entry for each type.