C11KAS automatic overbanking (or is it rebanking)?

[SwissSeiko]

On 10/4/2024 at 4:32 PM, Nucejoe said:

George Daniels is right, I thought him that.  lol 

On serious side, he is my favourite legend, Ok must  confes ,like bereguet too. 

Did George say third of  (diameter or of barrel bottom surface area? ).

 

1/3 of the barrel bottom. The internal diameter of the barrel.

[praezis]

Seems even native English speaking guys are confused by the …banking issue .

Berner‘s lexicon says:

Rebanking he calls „knocking“ which avoids all confusion and was already proposed by Klassiker.

I found only one big fault in Daniels‘ book and that is the claim of 1/3 barrel diameter for the correct mainspring. This is wrong. The arbor uses 1/3, the remaining 2/3 make a free area in which a correct mainspring takes 1/2 (area). Of course then the relaxed mainspring will use less then 1/3 diameter, the wound mainspring more than 1/3.

Frank

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, praezis said:

Seems even native English speaking guys are confused by the …banking issue .

Berner‘s lexicon says:

Rebanking he calls „knocking“ which avoids all confusion and was already proposed by Klassiker.

I found only one big fault in Daniels‘ book and that is the claim of 1/3 barrel diameter for the correct mainspring. This is wrong. The arbor uses 1/3, the remaining 2/3 make a free area in which a correct mainspring takes 1/2 (area). Of course then the relaxed mainspring will use less then 1/3 diameter, the wound mainspring more than 1/3.

Frank

I see the diagram visually represents both a rebanking and overbanking situation with the directional pull of the hairspring unidentified .

[praezis]

That is true. You have to read the text and the picture should be a video

[Neverenoughwatches]

Just now, praezis said:

That is true. You have to read the text and the picture should be a video

Great explanation Frank, i wonder do other areas of the world use the 2 terms interchangeably,  Kalle used what we would consider the incorrect term.

[praezis]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Kalle used what we would consider the incorrect term.

Not surprising to me 

[mbwatch]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

i wonder do other areas of the world use the 2 terms interchangeably

I would suspect geography less than just repeating whatever term mentors used. I did see something somewhere blaming "Americans" (e.g. me) for mixing up the two. There are plenty of things you can blame us for besides that.

Edited October 7, 2024 by mbwatch

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, praezis said:

Not surprising to me 

Not a fan ? , he makes mistakes. 

[praezis]

No comment …

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, mbwatch said:

I would suspect geography less than just repeating whatever term mentors used. I did see something somewhere blaming "Americans" (e.g. me) for mixing up the two. There are plenty of things you can blame us for besides 

 

[mbwatch]

@Neverenoughwatches You're welcome.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, praezis said:

No comment …

 I already knew

[praezis]

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

Citing Tarantino?

[mbwatch]

1 minute ago, praezis said:

Citing Tarantino?

What do they call a Quarter Pounder with Cheese in Germany?

[Neverenoughwatches]

I'll let off with Starbucks 

[praezis]

No idea, I wasn‘t there for decades. What drove me out was a terribly thin „coffee“.

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, praezis said:

Citing Tarantino?

I didn't need Tarantino to come to my own conclusions about the healthiest food on the planet

[Levine98]

On 10/4/2024 at 4:38 PM, nevenbekriev said:

See, The idea to take balance out to check and look at is wrong. Actually, You need the balance and the pallet fork IN the movement to do the checks needed.  It is better to put ONLY the balance and the pallet fork (with their cocks) on the main plate. Then You need to turn the balance in some direction and try to force the pallet fork to the other side. You should try this in different manners, like balance up - fork down and vise versa. Then You should repeat the same when balance is turned to the other direction. Generally, the fork must NOT be able to go to the other side. This should be the same as to lock a drawer so fast that to throw the key inside before it is fully closed. And, if the fork is able to go to the other side, then investigate how, when and why this happens. Generally, it happens if the guard pin is short and passes thru the roller or it passes above or under the roller. Or, the roller doesn't rotate true and there is certain balance position where the roller gets far enough from the pin and lets it pass. The other reason for rebanking is that the impulse jewel is short or it stays up and in certain situation can pass above the fork's horns

So I checked it following the method you outlined and the pallet fork held (ie everything was fine).

so I swapped out the mainspring with one I picked up on eBay from a salvage movement. In fact it is the whole barrel assembly and I decided just to use it as is (I didn’t want to risk opening the barrel up just to measure the spring).
The amplitude is much lower, 250-260 (vs +300 plus before). I’m going to run the movement in multiple positions over a couple of days at full wind to see if this solves the problem.  
 

thanks to all for helping out.

Edited October 12, 2024 by Levine98

[nevenbekriev]

On 10/4/2024 at 10:44 PM, nevenbekriev said:

If we talk about the situation when the watch has stopped with the impulse jewel outside the fork notch in zero position and it is needed to take the balance out and put it back correctly for making the watch work again, then it has nothing to do with the mainspring. The strong mainspring may be provoking the fault more frequently, but if it is able to happen, then it will happen again and again, until the real reason is rectified. And, the real reason is that the guard mechanism of the balance, which consists of the guard roller and the guard pin, for some reason and in some situation, doesn't work.

I am lazy to write it again, so just quoted myself

[Levine98]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

I am lazy to write it again, so just quoted myself

I get your point, but in order to find the root cause I need to be able to replicate the issue. So if a slightly weaker mainspring masks the issue, not sure what else I can do at this point? I checked end shake and tested with just the pallet fork and balance complete in place but couldn’t replicate.  If you think there are other things to check please advise. Or maybe it will fail later today but as of now, 2 hours in, under multiple positions, it’s running fine.

thanks again, Jay
 

Edited October 12, 2024 by Levine98

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Jay,

Actually, it is like a cat which is in a cage. If the cat has once found a way out of the cage, then the cage for sure is not in order. The reverse is not always true: if the cat is still in the cage, then it doesn't mean the cage is in order. May be the cat is lazy, not smart enough or not hungry...

As You cat has proven to be able to get out of the cage, then no point to doubt if it will get out again.

The overbanking may not happen when the watch works on the table. But, start to use it as a watch - put it on the wrist, then forget about it and do You normal activities. Shaking and sudden position changes will provoke overbanking, and if it is able to happen, then it, sooner or later, will happen again.

[Levine98]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi Jay,

Actually, it is like a cat which is in a cage. If the cat has once found a way out of the cage, then the cage for sure is not in order. The reverse is not always true: if the cat is still in the cage, then it doesn't mean the cage is in order. May be the cat is lazy, not smart enough or not hungry...

As You cat has proven to be able to get out of the cage, then no point to doubt if it will get out again.

The overbanking may not happen when the watch works on the table. But, start to use it as a watch - put it on the wrist, then forget about it and do You normal activities. Shaking and sudden position changes will provoke overbanking, and if it is able to happen, then it, sooner or later, will happen again.

Nevenbekriev, I fully take your point, thanks again. It was locking up (overbanking) even just on the bench before. I’ll bounce it about after re-casing to see if I can provoke it 

[Levine98]

On 10/12/2024 at 2:33 PM, Levine98 said:

Nevenbekriev, I fully take your point, thanks again. It was locking up (overbanking) even just on the bench before. I’ll bounce it about after re-casing to see if I can provoke it 

Well I’ve been struggling with this movement for some time. It was still locking up today after firing it up for the first time in a couple of weeks. Decided to check the end shake of the pallet fork and it did seem a tad to much, which seemed to me a reasonable possibility. So I adjusted a smidgen (actually two smidgens at first, but that was too tight, so backed off a smidgen), and am testing now. Will re-case tomorrow and wear for couple of days to see if i have finally licked this devil. If not, thinking might be time for me to sell as salvage.  

[VWatchie]

On 10/7/2024 at 6:44 PM, praezis said:

Not surprising to me 

I can't help but admire his confidence though! 

On 10/7/2024 at 7:03 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

I didn't need Tarantino to come to my own conclusions about the healthiest food on the planet

Speaking of healthy food, we all know a varied diet is the best. That’s why I like to alternate between McDonald's, Burger King, and Wendy's.