Escapement meter

[caseback]

I bought a bunch of tools and expect them to arrive here next week or so. One of the tools is an escapement meter. 

I knew they existed, but have never seen one "in action". Have any of you ever used one of these? Are they worth having? How do they work? 

Edited October 8, 2024 by caseback
Typo

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, caseback said:

I bought a bunch of tools and expect them to arrive here next week or so. One of the tools is an escapement meter. 

I knew the existed, but have never seen one "in action". Have any of you ever used one of these? Are they worth having? How do they work? 

What a gadget ! Checks and adjusts pallet stones. Makes that process of setting up the escapement easier and accuate more quickly than is possible without it. Depends what it cost. 

[caseback]

I'm looking forward to receiving it and mess about with it some. Getting a bunch of tools in the mail always feels like chrismas.. 

I'll try posting some pictures and a walk-through when i figure it out.

[JohnR725]

oh you're going to need something to go with fewer tool which is when you're moving the pallet stones you need to heat up the shellac which means the entire tool has to go on a small heater.

[caseback]

1 minute ago, JohnR725 said:

oh you're going to need something to go with fewer tool which is when you're moving the pallet stones you need to heat up the shellac which means the entire tool has to go on a small heater.

Something like this (heh, heh...)?

It's a heating plate I used for phone repair (previous hobby of sorts..).

I used it this week with a copper coin to replace some pallet stones.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, caseback said:

Getting a bunch of tools in the mail always feels like chrismas.. 

Doesn't it just, ive had about 50 Christmas days this year up to now

[RichardHarris123]

What happened to an orange and a piece of coal for Christmas? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

What happened to an orange and a piece of coal for Christmas? 

Ok victorian grandpa you can keep that thought but I'm gonna treat myself everyday if i can cos nobody else will, you got to look after no. 1 in this world. 

Someone somewhere sometime somehow is planning to shit on you, call me cynical but ita something you dont want to forger...ever

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Someone somewhere sometime somehow is planning to shit on you,

Have you heard.... not everyone who shits on you is an enemy.

[mbwatch]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Have you heard.... not everyone who shits on you is an enemy.

Having raised a couple of babies, I concur.

[caseback]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ok victorian grandpa you can keep that thought but I'm gonna treat myself everyday if i can cos nobody else will, you got to look after no. 1 in this world.

Ah, you don't trust Santa to judge you've been nice either.. .

But (trying to nudge this thread back on track), has anyone, anywhere seen any instructions on using one of these at any time?

[nevenbekriev]

1 hour ago, caseback said:

But (trying to nudge this thread back on track), has anyone, anywhere seen any instructions on using one of these at any time?

Sorry, I can only support with instructions how to do without the tool, easier than by using the tool.

[Nucejoe]

 Guess,  a proprietory tool used at assembly line, the watchmaker knew exact depth of lock to adjust to, which he read off the indicator.

 

 

[JohnR725]

19 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Sorry, I can only support with instructions how to do without the tool, easier than by using the tool.

for the 99.9% of the people in the group that do not have access to this tool it would be nice if you showed us how to do it without the tool.

8 hours ago, caseback said:

I used it this week with a copper coin to replace some pallet stones.

it should work just fine as you've already melted shellac with it.

then I'm attaching a PDF of how you're supposed to use the tool.

then if you do a search I know we discussed the tool in the past on the group someplace?

 

 

 

 

3229 escapement meter.pdf

2 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Guess,  a proprietory tool used at assembly line, the watchmaker knew exact depth of lock to adjust to, which he read off the indicator.

not proprietary it's just one of those obscure tools that most people don't have. more than likely most commonplace that anyone ever run into these would be students in schools typically influenced by the Swiss. Where you get to spend lots and lots and lots of time adjusting escapement's.

https://www.bergeon.swiss/echappemetre.html

then there's this somebody really obsessed.

http://www.bobinchak.com/watchmaking/2018/11/12/escapement-meter-complete

 

 

[caseback]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

then if you do a search I know we discussed the tool in the past on the group someplace?

 

Thnx!!

I did a search for "escapement meter" and "escapement tool", but only managed to find a topic about someone searching (and finding) a spring to fix one. Searching for just "escapement" would result in some serious reading time .

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Have you heard.... not everyone who shits on you is an enemy.

Absolutely Hector without question, the only person you should ever completely trust is your mother...while shes around and some poor folk are not even able to have that. We dont even know ourselves what is best for us but we can have a bloody good crack at it. 

6 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Having raised a couple of babies, I concur.

Unfortunate experiences make us mature wise and wily against threat, part of life.

4 hours ago, caseback said:

Ah, you don't trust Santa to judge you've been nice either.. .

A large guy in a red onesie and wellies with a massive beard that shouts a lot and when folk sleep storms their homes without consent..........now how to answer that

[JohnR725]

13 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

storms their homes without consent....

I happen to watch a lot of urban exploring primarily in the UK. So storming a house without consent providing burglary tools are not used for entry is considered acceptable and a way is found in the without actually having to break in. So conceivably popping down the chimney is considered acceptable.

I suppose then should somebody accidentally leave milk and cookies out and those items are consumed that might be conceived as theft of property. another thing that would get you in trouble is if you turn on a light that's considered theft of electricity. Then I don't know how they would account for if you leave gifts behind including possibly coal in somebody stocking as that can be used for heating the house. But basically it's not considered a crime it's considered a civil matter.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I happen to watch a lot of urban exploring primarily in the UK. So storming a house without consent providing burglary tools are not used for entry is considered acceptable and a way is found in the without actually having to break in. So conceivably popping down the chimney is considered acceptable.

I suppose then should somebody accidentally leave milk and cookies out and those items are consumed that might be conceived as theft of property. another thing that would get you in trouble is if you turn on a light that's considered theft of electricity. Then I don't know how they would account for if you leave gifts behind including possibly coal in somebody stocking as that can be used for heating the house. But basically it's not considered a crime it's considered a civil matter.

 

Lol , you crack me up John.....how about damage to property....landing an airborne large animal driven vehical on someone's roof....and trespassing ? 

[oldhippy]

Have a look at this.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

I would have thought with plenty of light and magnification, actual measurement isn't too important.  Just some way of holding the lever steady and a very fine adjustable stop to push the pallet stones up to. I'm sure i have two gadgety tools that do something like this........called an xray tool ?... had them ages and never loaded a lever up in them....pretty sure they were for pocket watches. Set mesen up a brew and I'll take a skeg....make myself a coffee and i will take a look. 

12 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Have a look at this.

 

Lol.. he struggled with his demonstration and explanations but from the bit i watched was interesting to see the tool in action.

[nevenbekriev]

I watched the video (diagonally). Oh, what a sorrow! Why a man will make video about using a tool when He has never used this tool before? Hi put the pallet backwards in the first attempt, this shows He has no idea what He is doing. My respect, He didn't loose or lounge the pallet, thou He hunted for it with the tweezers for several minutes...

Well, this tool doesn't measure anything and doesn't help to adjust the escapement, all it does is to show how exactly You have moved the pallet, but in some kind of unknown length units, thus helping to be sure the pallet has actually moved in needed direction and gives relative idea for the movement length.

I made simple video to show how I put the pallet in place and correct it's position. You can see that I do it with bare hands and one brass tweezers. The tweezers need to be rigid - I use these for straightening  pivots.

You can see the oscillating movement I do with the tweezers when moving the pallet out or in. It helps to move the pallet gradually and in small steps. Of course, You have to put the pallet fork in the movement and try it in every step

When the pallet has to be moved out (to the wheel), it is not needed to remove the shellac. It's presence actually helps, as You can observe the gap that appears behind the pallet end and thus know how much has the pallet moved. And, pressing it in with the tweezers as I do in the video resets it in the position before the start. When adjustment is done and all the checks show it is correct, then only heating the pallet fork is needed to soften the shellac, if enough of it is sill there.

[HectorLooi]

Yes, it was really painful to watch. I clean old shellac off ethanol. Comes off in seconds.

I don't use shellac anymore. Once I confirm that I'm getting good amplitude, I just put a couple of drops of UV glue and zap it. It will never come off again.... unless you wash it in acetone.

If you really want to measure the distance of the face of the pallet to the back of the fork, a digital microscope could be used, with less chance of damaging or accidentally changing the distance if the jewel was already loose.

The measurements mean nothing. Ultimate test is the amplitude.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Yes, it was really painful to watch.

It was pretty bad tbh, so bad i only watched up to half of it and I did well to get that far. He made an effort bless him

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

I watched the video (diagonally). Oh, what a sorrow! Why a man will make video about using a tool when He has never used this tool before? Hi put the pallet backwards in the first attempt, this shows He has no idea what He is doing. My respect, He didn't loose or lounge the pallet, thou He hunted for it with the tweezers for several minutes...

Well, this tool doesn't measure anything and doesn't help to adjust the escapement, all it does is to show how exactly You have moved the pallet, but in some kind of unknown length units, thus helping to be sure the pallet has actually moved in needed direction and gives relative idea for the movement length.

I made simple video to show how I put the pallet in place and correct it's position. You can see that I do it with bare hands and one brass tweezers. The tweezers need to be rigid - I use these for straightening  pivots.

You can see the oscillating movement I do with the tweezers when moving the pallet out or in. It helps to move the pallet gradually and in small steps. Of course, You have to put the pallet fork in the movement and try it in every step

When the pallet has to be moved out (to the wheel), it is not needed to remove the shellac. It's presence actually helps, as You can observe the gap that appears behind the pallet end and thus know how much has the pallet moved. And, pressing it in with the tweezers as I do in the video resets it in the position before the start. When adjustment is done and all the checks show it is correct, then only heating the pallet fork is needed to soften the shellac, if enough of it is sill there.

Kind of looks like a barbaric way of adjusting the stone nev but i also understand why and how you do it this way. I think a lot of folk rely too much on gadgets that just isn't necessary, i find myself using my fingers and hands more and more these days, we have the perfect holding devices already attached to use, why dont we learn to use them...our hand/eye co-ordination has been developing from thd moment we were born....ive watched a few old George Daniels videos....he was very hands on.

[nevenbekriev]

56 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Yes, it was really painful to watch. I clean old shellac off ethanol. Comes off in seconds.

I don't use shellac anymore. Once I confirm that I'm getting good amplitude, I just put a couple of drops of UV glue and zap it. It will never come off again.... unless you wash it in acetone.

If you really want to measure the distance of the face of the pallet to the back of the fork, a digital microscope could be used, with less chance of damaging or accidentally changing the distance if the jewel was already loose.

The measurements mean nothing. Ultimate test is the amplitude.

I agree with all, but the last one. Nop, amplitude is not the ultimate test. There are several factors that the movement must comply with. Good amplitude is  result of the efficiency of the escapement. Efficiency is one of the factors. But, the other factors are reliability and isochronism. Amplitude will increase with reducing the 'depth' of the escapement. But, with reducing the depth, at some point, the reliability will get bad. There are cases when the movement will work fine on the table, but when worn on wrist (shaken hit...), it will tend to stop with escapement locked. And the best  isochronism sometimes do not coincider with the best amplitude...

[praezis]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

You have moved the pallet, but in some kind of unknown length units

Not difficult to verify: I did it, units are 1/100 mm .

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

I don't use shellac anymore. Once I confirm that I'm getting good amplitude, I just put a couple of drops of UV glue and zap it. It will never come off again

My compassion for the next repairer!