Escapement meter

[nevenbekriev]

7 minutes ago, praezis said:

Not difficult to verify: I did it, units are 1/100 mm .

Good to know, but actually not important unless You really know how exactly hundreds the pallet has to be moved.

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It was pretty bad tbh, so bad i only watched up to half of it and I did well to get that far. He made an effort bless him

Kind of looks like a barbaric way of adjusting the stone nev but i also understand why and how you do it this way. I think a lot of folk rely too much on gadgets that just isn't necessary, i find myself using my fingers and hands more and more these days, we have the perfect holding devices already attached to use, why dont we learn to use them...our hand/eye co-ordination has been developing from thd moment we were born....ive watched a few old George Daniels videos....he was very hands on.

Well, I made my first attempts in escapement adjustments when I was 13-14 years old. There was nobody then to tell me how to do it, so I did it the way I figured. This way proved good for me, and I still use it. For sure it doesn't need special tools and equipment and all happens pretty fast.

Sometimes people don't believe me, but actually I don't have microscope, timegrapher, Horia tool, Platax or whatever of that sort. This is not because I am poor, actually I am not. I just don't need such things. When I learned, it was not possible to get to such things so i learned to do without... I have several lathes with different milling attachments, plenty of different files, plenty of simple tools like tweezers and screwdrivers. About 5 years ago I even got staking set...

[HectorLooi]

41 minutes ago, praezis said:

My compassion for the next repairer!

Why? If nothing is wrong with the pallet fork, why mess with it?

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

I agree with all, but the last one. Nop, amplitude is not the ultimate test. There are several factors that the movement must comply with. Good amplitude is  result of the efficiency of the escapement. Efficiency is one of the factors. But, the other factors are reliability and isochronism. Amplitude will increase with reducing the 'depth' of the escapement. But, with reducing the depth, at some point, the reliability will get bad. There are cases when the movement will work fine on the table, but when worn on wrist (shaken hit...), it will tend to stop with escapement locked. And the best  isochronism sometimes do not coincider with the best amplitude...

Too light on the depth of the stone and the escape tooth lock becomes unsafe. I now always consider the timekeeping to be more important than the amplitude, @JohnR725  has quoted this many many times.  Not sure if my example here is relavent, but i recently restored and corrected some factory design flaws on 2  old cheap pin pallet pockets watches i doubt either of them worked very well from leaving the factory,both were barely pully 150° at full wind after i had serviced and corrected them not sure if this is normal for these types of movements, but the timekeeping although a bit sketchy on the timegrapher was pretty accurate, maybe a minute off per day.....in my pocket, with reserves of around 30 hours, i was rather surprised and impressed what they were capable of.

1 hour ago, praezis said:

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

don't use shellac anymore. Once I confirm that I'm getting good amplitude, I just put a couple of drops of UV glue and zap it. It will never come off again

My compassion for the next repairer!

But what if it needs to ? Wouldn't that be a lever wasted ? 

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Good to know, but actually not important unless You really know how exactly hundreds the pallet has to be moved.

Well, I made my first attempts in escapement adjustments when I was 13-14 years old. There was nobody then to tell me how to do it, so I did it the way I figured. This way proved good for me, and I still use it. For sure it doesn't need special tools and equipment and all happens pretty fast.

Sometimes people don't believe me, but actually I don't have microscope, timegrapher, Horia tool, Platax or whatever of that sort. This is not because I am poor, actually I am not. I just don't need such things. When I learned, it was not possible to get to such things so i learned to do without... I have several lathes with different milling attachments, plenty of different files, plenty of simple tools like tweezers and screwdrivers. About 5 years ago I even got staking set...

We've all seen what you're capable of Nev. The methods you use are instilled in your brain from your own doing. Learning these ways as a child makes it a natural process for you, you're very lucky to have had the chance to develop your skill from such an early age.

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Why? If nothing is wrong with the pallet fork, why mess with it?

I think the suggestion of a permanent change that can't be altered on something that should be adjustable. If the gluing you use is reversable then.....

As long as it has no adverse effects on the pallet fork or movement and any weight difference compared to shellac is negligible. 

[praezis]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Why? If nothing is wrong with the pallet fork, why mess with it?

E.g. when your pallet gets victim of the most popular „parts swapping“ …

 

[HectorLooi]

UV glue softens in acetone, so not a problem.

[VWatchie]

On 10/8/2024 at 9:27 PM, caseback said:

I'll try posting some pictures and a walk-through when i figure it out.

That would be very interesting and much appreciated! 

On 10/9/2024 at 12:44 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

I'm gonna treat myself everyday if i can cos nobody else will, you got to look after no. 1 in this world.

Amen!

Happy daddy => Happy wife => Happy kids => Happy society => Happy world => Happy future! 

3 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

This is not because I am poor, actually I am not. I just don't need such things.

Congrats!

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Happy daddy => Happy wife => Happy kids => Happy society => Happy world => Happy future! 

We can all add our little bit to that simple solution H, so sad the whole world doesn't implement it.

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

This is not because I am poor, actually I am not. I just don't need such things.

I would much sooner make what i want than buy it.... and do to some extent....you get something to your own specifications. Just something ive learnt from bespoke construction.

[VWatchie]

18 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would much sooner make what i want than buy it.... and do to some extent....you get something to your own specifications. Just something ive learnt from bespoke construction.

I admire people who can make their tools and think out of the box. I can't claim to be in that category to any great extent (although I try) but I take comfort in the fact that my expensive fine Swiss tools will at least retain their value if and when I am forced to sell them.

[JohnR725]

On 10/10/2024 at 5:56 AM, HectorLooi said:

UV glue softens in acetone, so not a problem

someday in the future some unsuspecting watchmaker attempts to adjust the pallet stones, does the UV glue soften in or with heat? 

 

On 10/10/2024 at 4:48 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

I now always consider the timekeeping to be more important than the amplitude, @JohnR725  has quoted this many many times.

the unfortunate problem of timekeeping is you do have to have a functional escapement.

the amusements I have with this and other groups is the obsession with some sort of magical target amplitude or you're a failure in watch repair. On a different group somebody with a pocket watch had way too much amplitude and tried everything except the logical solution. The groups decision was put the proper mainspring as typically American pocket watches even Rolex has differing strength mainsprings for the same watch. But this person was so scared the new mainspring it might take the amplitude too low and he would be I guess a failure. I am wondering if maybe YouTube personalities are spreading this bizarre obsession?

then using the term timekeeping is too simplistic we need numbers. So I snipped out something with numbers something may be easy to recognize that Omega numbers ETA numbers of various watches.

then I did not snip out the fine print which I assume everyone knows for proper timing procedures. In other words fully wound up at zero is fully wound up but a settling time. typically at least 15 minutes to about an hour it varies. This way with a any watch or not wound up at the absolute peak of too much power.

then notice test positions it depends upon the grade of the watch but this is only for ETA specifications ideally for troubleshooting you should really look at six positions. Then you get the average rate once again it depends upon the quality grade of the watch. The Delta of the various tests positions. Then?

On 10/10/2024 at 3:05 AM, nevenbekriev said:

But, the other factors are reliability and isochronism.

isochronism?

True they abbreviated it but that's the word. Just think if you had a properly adjusted escapement a properly shaped mainspring with the nice back curve producing linear power may be little watch fully wound up doing 245°? On this group you would be a failure and you should leave. But if it met all the timing specifications and at the end of 24 hours it was within the timekeeping specifications especially the isochronism and still had the minimum amplitude on the spec sheets you would be fine except on this group where you would be a failure because you were supposed to get that magical amplitude whatever the heck it is

yes I really do get annoyed with the target amplitude or death attitude on these graphs

so isochronism the effect of amplitude. This is where if you hit some magical 300° and your mainspring sock and other factors in your crashed 200° you would be extremely unlikely to ever get this isochronism number you do much better with a consistent amplitude over the running span. This is also why the power reserves become important as you tend to get more linear timekeeping with longer power reserves as it gives more even mainspring power

oh and then for those of you recovering from your heart attack over minimum amplitude of the 190°. But notice at that lower amplitude the isochronism number is much bigger there only timing and three positions Delta's bigger. Plus a slightly shorter power reserve.

So customers only care if their watch keeps time they don't typically care about amplitude. Although I see on the Rolex discussion group for some of them of timing machines and they are concerned about their amplitude. But typical people don't have timing machines they just care of the watch keeps time. Watch companies as we'd see below have timing specifications and timekeeping is the most important. With unfortunately you still have to have a functional escapement and enough amplitude consistent amplitude to keep the timekeeping.

[Nucejoe]

57 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

someday in the future some unsuspecting watchmaker attempts to adjust the pallet stones, does the UV glue soften in or with heat? 

 Good point John, UV glue does soften with heat, but does it cure again or must be removed/cleaned and  replaced with new? 

Rgds

Edited October 11, 2024 by Nucejoe

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

but does it cure again or must be removed/ replaced with new? 

Rgds

I'm pretty sure it's a permanent solution.

 

[VWatchie]

On 10/11/2024 at 8:43 PM, JohnR725 said:

Thanks for sharing!

How should the abbreviations under "Test Positions" be understood? Let me guess and then you can confirm or correct me if needed.

CH = Dial up
FH = Dial down
6H = Crown left (dial facing user)
9H = Crown down
3H = Crown up

On 10/11/2024 at 8:43 PM, JohnR725 said:

I am wondering if maybe YouTube personalities are spreading this bizarre obsession?

It happens on occasion, but it's not too bad. It has been mostly on WRT, especially by a moderator who's no longer here (thank god). If your amplitude fully wound dial-up was below 270° you were a total failure. I did feel like a total failure and almost gave up on this beloved hobby of mine. Fortunately, "a pro" here on the forum insisted that amplitude was not the be-all and end-all and that there were more important things to focus on. So I have been a lot happier since.

[JohnR725]

it's interesting with this particular chart is the minimum is three positions the maximum is five. Here's the translation and the stabilization time is more or less standard. So is when you rotate your microphone you have to wait 20 seconds and then they usually average the measuring over in this case 40 seconds. 

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

If your amplitude fully wound dial-up was below 270° you were a total failure.

thinking about this magical number I have attached a PDF. On page 4 all sorts of amplitudes and then you get the extra the average which is 269° oh dear maybe it's close enough to be acceptable. But some of the other positions are below the acceptable fortunately most people in this group only test in one position anyway so there is always that.

then starting on page 9 interesting of the maximum amplitude changes between automatic and manual wind don't think I'd notice that before? In a case they go on a talk about the maximum for a few more pages

was looking at some of the other documents I do see another watch company that had only two positions most a minimum is three. Here's what Omega things on the number of positions typically that be three. Chronometer five which agrees with Rolex and master chronometer get six positions.

the testing positions of course does bring up an amusing problem of having a witschi timing machine that checks the watch and six positions when as far as timing specifications go we really wouldn't have to other than it's nice for evaluation purposes.

8643_WI_81 BASIC CHECKS AND SETTINGS OF A MECHANICAL WATCH_EN cousins UK.pdf

[praezis]

If you want to translate the positions names yourself:

H = haut = up

F = fond = back

C = cadran = dial

French language has the problem of same 1st letter for dial and crown, so they have to use 3,6,9…

Re amplitude:  don‘t make yourself too comfortable with John‘ s words.  Horizontal considerable below 270 should at least make you frown and think about the possible reason.

Frank

Edited October 13, 2024 by praezis

[JohnR725]

17 hours ago, praezis said:

e amplitude:  don‘t make yourself too comfortable with John‘ s words.  Horizontal considerable below 270 should at least make you frown and think about the possible reason.

if this is true I do watch companies not publish numbers as opposed to minimum and maximum?

Edited October 14, 2024 by JohnR725

[Neverenoughwatches]

18 hours ago, praezis said:

If you want to translate the positions names yourself:

H = haut = up

F = fond = back

C = cadran = dial

French language has the problem of same 1st letter for dial and crown, so they have to use 3,6,9…

Re amplitude:  don‘t make yourself too comfortable with John‘ s words.  Horizontal considerable below 270 should at least make you frown and think about the possible reason.

Frank

Amplitude is an indicator of friction within the movement and health definitely but surely it depends on what else is happening. If the mainspring is completely unwinding and everything else is running good enough to enable isochronism doesn't that indicate a healthy movement in the same way....obviously there is a cut off point that the amplitude reaches when those two factors start to fail. I think John is just suggesting not to rely on amplitude alone to make decisions that we've done enough work.

You could be striving for 270° that was barely attainable when the watch was brand new

Then it becomes a diminishing return for your effort. At my work i know when its time to quit and call it good enough

[Nucejoe]

Here is a previous  discussion on amplitude.

Importance of amplitude.

To avoid repetition.

[VWatchie]

On 10/13/2024 at 1:21 PM, praezis said:

Re amplitude:  don‘t make yourself too comfortable with John‘ s words.  Horizontal considerable below 270 should at least make you frown and think about the possible reason.

I refuse to go back to the camp where an amplitude below 270° is considered a failure. It just doesn't bring me any joy or better-performing watches. I'm afraid stating "considerably below 270°" doesn't say much if anything at all. All we see (again) is the dreaded number 270°.

Edited October 14, 2024 by VWatchie

[Klassiker]

57 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I refuse to go back to the camp where an amplitude below 270° is considered a failure.

I've been reading this forum regularly for a few years now, and I'm really not aware of any such "camp". Certainly @praezis doesn't belong in it, not judging by the comment above anyway. It's just a rule of thumb, useful as a quick and easy check, with a good foundation in theory and practice. It should be seen as an aid to achieving good timekeeping, not as an end in itself.

[rehajm]

16 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

I've been reading this forum regularly for a few years now, and I'm really not aware of any such "camp". Certainly @praezis doesn't belong in it, not judging by the comment above anyway. It's just a rule of thumb, useful as a quick and easy check, with a good foundation in theory and practice. It should be seen as an aid to achieving good timekeeping, not as an end in itself.

Yes, thou shall not worship the holy timegraph machine but in my experience praezis alert is quite correct. If you are working on a quality movement in fair condition and don’t see the magic amplitude number it may be telling you something is amiss…

Something amazing happened to me in my watch journey- as I learned to discover more defects and faults and my skills improved at correcting them and I learned a few tips and tricks to easily improve amplitude…amazingly! the quality and condition of my movements improved AND when they don’t meet or exceed the magic number I almost always discover a reason why. Sometimes the reason is ‘because this is a Seiko’. More often it’s because there’s something I missed or something I could improve…

…In conclusion: take the number as a hint…

Edited October 14, 2024 by rehajm

[nickelsilver]

I don't really see many Seikos (like 1 every 3 or 4 years?) but they seem to be known for running lower than 270 amplitude. Likewise, I might have worked on one Russian movement years ago. But for other stuff, regardless of age, I do go for a healthy 270 horizontal. I am doing this for paying customers though. If I am under, I will figure out a way to get it up (and 99 times out of 100 a new mainspring isn't the answer). That often entails adjusting the escapement, which I do very frequently.

 

There are exceptions; for example I had a nice little Piaget 9P in last week, which hit 255 or so horizontal. However, it only dropped to 240 in vertical, and had a 15 second delta over 6 positions, going to 20s at 24h and amplitude staying above 200. So I let it go at that.

[praezis]

2 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

There are exceptions; for example I had a nice little Piaget 9P in last week, which hit 255 or so horizontal. However, it only dropped to 240 in vertical, and had a 15 second delta over 6 positions, going to 20s at 24h and amplitude staying above 200. So I let it go at that.

A similar experience I had recently with a just acquired German pilot chronograph. Only reaching 240 hor. fully wound. Of course I frowned and investigated.

About 20 deg less vertical. Nearly perfect poise adjusted. And - running 50 hours instead of the usual 42 for this calibre.

Guess what‘s the reason?

I decided to leave it ok (until next service only. Of course).

Frank

 

[nickelsilver]

10 minutes ago, praezis said:

A similar experience I had recently with a just acquired German pilot chronograph. Only reaching 240 hor. fully wound. Of course I frowned and investigated.

About 20 deg less vertical. Nearly perfect poise adjusted. And - running 50 hours instead of the usual 42 for this calibre.

Guess what‘s the reason?

I decided to leave it ok (until next service only. Of course).

Frank

 

Considering the extra run time, my guess is it has a slightly weaker than normal mainspring.

[mbwatch]

8 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Considering the extra run time,

Back up a second... This is new theory for me. Weaker mainspring produces lower amplitude, yes. But it also has an effect on runtime? I thought only spring length could affect runtime.

[praezis]

40 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Back up a second... This is new theory for me. Weaker mainspring produces lower amplitude, yes. But it also has an effect on runtime? I thought only spring length could affect runtime.

Not told but quietly assumed: the spring is correct for the barrel, i.e. thinner then means longer concurrently.

Remember: the optimal mainspring occupies half of the free area inside the barrel.

Frank

Edited October 14, 2024 by praezis