Help with Buying Vintage Cleaning Machines

[Bigjay]

Hi all, I live in the UK and have been looking at buying a vintage watch cleaning machine.  A certain online auction site has a few for sale but the asking prices for ones in the UK seem extortionate compared to others offered from abroad.  My question is, if I purchased one from abroad and had it rewired, would the components such as motors and all be able to operate with the UK 240v network?  Even the UK ones for sale recommend a rewire “for safety” so I wonder if these have already been sourced from abroad and have just had a UK plug installed.  The machines I have seen so far are L&R and Elma models.  I know Brenray and National machines are british made so should be fine.

Edited October 26, 2024 by Bigjay

[oldhippy]

Just found this on google. There are a few on here I'm sure will be able to help you more than me. This is googles answer

If the input range includes 230 which is the common UK voltage as well as the 120 which is common in the US then it will work. It also needs to work on both 50 and 60 Hz to work in the US and UK

[tomh207]

To add to what OH has provided, if you are buying from Europe it will likely be 220-240V 50Hz same as here in the UK. North American or Japanese machines are more usually 110V 60Hz and would likely need either a transformer or replacement motor. By the nature of these machines being vintage personally I would rewire as a matter of course, insulation deteriates over time and a lot of the older machines were not necessarily earthed properly or indeed at all.

 

Tom

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, Bigjay said:

rewire “for safety”

for terminology your ending up with two separate things that ideally both have to be done possibly.

11 hours ago, Bigjay said:

vintage

vintage wood main vintage wiring and vintage wiring as a problem of not being safe for variety of reasons. So anything vintage with electricity the wiring needs to be verified that it's still functionally correct and not going to burn your house down for instance. So typically people rewire a functional machine to make sure the wiring is suitable. So basically it's not so much the wire itself it's the insulation disintegrates so that needs to be dealt with which would be called rewired.

then just to make sure I get my numbers right quick search and I got the link below. As you can see the power coming out of wherever it comes out of is different depending upon where you live. So in the US it's considered to be 220 V at 60 cycles.in the United Kingdom it's 230 V at 50 cycles.  fortunately if you look at most of Europe 230 and other places 120 so yes a lot of equipment can be rewired because it was designed to work in either location. His wife you look at modern power supplies for all of our electronic stuff they will usually say between 100 and some voltage as there designed to have just about everything.

Oh and purchasing a vintage cleaning machines or for that matter new cleaning machines whoever packages up and ships to you should be aware of cleaning machines in general are heavy and glass does not like to be bumped by heavy objects. As a really interesting video on YouTube or someone purchased a brand-new Elma machine and Elma didn't seem to grasp anymore or at the time failed to grasp that they didn't package their jars appropriately and they came disintegrated and the machine of course was damaged. Which wouldn't happen if things were properly packaged. As a brings up the problem of vintage machines were they ideally should almost send the jars separate from the machine to keep the jars from disintegrating.

 

 

https://www.generatorsource.com/Voltages_and_Hz_by_Country.aspx

 

[Geotex]

4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

So in the US it's considered to be 220 V at 60 cycles.

 

Although most homes and businesses in the US have 220V/60Hz power available for large, fixed appliances and tools you will find that portable tools such as watch cleaning machines sold here will almost all be wired for 120V/60Hz, including the vintage L&R machines.  They can be used on a higher mains power by using a step-down voltage transformer and the 50 to 60Hz mismatch isn't a major issue for components such as the universal motor and power resistor (heater). 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Geotex said:

e 220V/60Hz power

 

2 hours ago, Geotex said:

lthough most homes and businesses in the US have 220V/60Hz power available for large, fixed appliances and tools you will find that portable tools such as watch cleaning machines sold here will almost all be wired for 120V/60Hz,

thank you for pointing out a technical mistake. yes the standard voltage for standard things in the US is 120.

[Bigjay]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

for terminology your ending up with two separate things that ideally both have to be done possibly.

vintage wood main vintage wiring and vintage wiring as a problem of not being safe for variety of reasons. So anything vintage with electricity the wiring needs to be verified that it's still functionally correct and not going to burn your house down for instance. So typically people rewire a functional machine to make sure the wiring is suitable. So basically it's not so much the wire itself it's the insulation disintegrates so that needs to be dealt with which would be called rewired.

then just to make sure I get my numbers right quick search and I got the link below. As you can see the power coming out of wherever it comes out of is different depending upon where you live. So in the US it's considered to be 220 V at 60 cycles.in the United Kingdom it's 230 V at 50 cycles.  fortunately if you look at most of Europe 230 and other places 120 so yes a lot of equipment can be rewired because it was designed to work in either location. His wife you look at modern power supplies for all of our electronic stuff they will usually say between 100 and some voltage as there designed to have just about everything.

Oh and purchasing a vintage cleaning machines or for that matter new cleaning machines whoever packages up and ships to you should be aware of cleaning machines in general are heavy and glass does not like to be bumped by heavy objects. As a really interesting video on YouTube or someone purchased a brand-new Elma machine and Elma didn't seem to grasp anymore or at the time failed to grasp that they didn't package their jars appropriately and they came disintegrated and the machine of course was damaged. Which wouldn't happen if things were properly packaged. As a brings up the problem of vintage machines were they ideally should almost send the jars separate from the machine to keep the jars from disintegrating.

 

 

https://www.generatorsource.com/Voltages_and_Hz_by_Country.aspx

 

Thanks John.  I think the point i was making was that sellers of these vintage machines in the uk that have been using them already seem to want to charge extortionate prices and then state the wiring should be re-wired or refurbished.  Obviously my issue would be if they have been using the machine in the UK then it would be fair to assume that the wiring should be up to UK spec (as they wouldn’t want to burn their own house down) so why ask such high prices for a machine that essentially needs major work(if they are claiming it need a rewire or refurbishment).

So, I then look at the overseas market where prices are so much cheaper (lets ignore import taxes for now and just focus on the value of the machine) and I wondered if those machines could be converted to be used on the UK network.  I have to honest, the whole explanation of 50hz/60hz  or cycles means nothing to me as have no idea what any of it means in reality.  Just wanted to know if I bought a cheaper like for like machine from overseas, could I get it to run safely on UK power supply? 

9 hours ago, Geotex said:

Although most homes and businesses in the US have 220V/60Hz power available for large, fixed appliances and tools you will find that portable tools such as watch cleaning machines sold here will almost all be wired for 120V/60Hz, including the vintage L&R machines.  They can be used on a higher mains power by using a step-down voltage transformer and the 50 to 60Hz mismatch isn't a major issue for components such as the universal motor and power resistor (heater). 

Thank you, that is very helpful.

19 hours ago, tomh207 said:

To add to what OH has provided, if you are buying from Europe it will likely be 220-240V 50Hz same as here in the UK. North American or Japanese machines are more usually 110V 60Hz and would likely need either a transformer or replacement motor. By the nature of these machines being vintage personally I would rewire as a matter of course, insulation deteriates over time and a lot of the older machines were not necessarily earthed properly or indeed at all.

 

Tom

Thanks Tom, that makes sense.  

[HectorLooi]

11 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

sellers of these vintage machines in the uk that have been using them already seem to want to charge extortionate prices and then state the wiring should be re-wired or refurbished.

I think that it's just an indemnity clause in case of any mishap. 

Edited October 27, 2024 by HectorLooi
Typo

[Bigjay]

2 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I think that it's just an indemnity clause in case of any mishap. 

I think you are probably right!  

[Neverenoughwatches]

30 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

so why ask such high prices for a machine that essentially needs major work(if they are claiming it need a rewire or refurbishment).

Because they can, watch repair addicts with plenty of cash....will want a traditional machine for just that fact alone and repair it or have it repaired. My view is to build something simple that performs as well for a very small fraction of the cost of a vintage machine that might need repair when you get it and in the future.

[Geotex]

With patience and some time investment you can have an old cleaner for much less than many sell for in working condition. I have two functioning L&R "vintage" machines but I approached it the same way I do watch repair - avoiding the most trendy models and watching for bargains by piecing together various used lots that had useable parts that could be cobbled together. The really old open-frame first generation units (painted silver or gold, not black) used mixer motors that don't reverse (low resale) but I've rewired them so that they now will. For my very old "Master" I've also set it up with a wiring breakout box that includes auto-switching so it has the Forward <-> Auto Cycle switch of the black base units that get top dollar. I've probably made eight or so Ebay purchases to put together everything, but it was enjoyable. You may end up with a Frankencleaner, but it's put together with quality aged components just like the watches we like working on. However, I didn't have to buy any specialty tools, so that is one downside compared to spending that time on watch repair.

[Phillipt]

I would go for a DIY kit cleaner instead of a vintage watch cleaner . If you google diy watch cleaner you will find a few , print the parts on a 3d printer or have the parts printed for you , get the hardware from Ali express and you end up with a better machine for half the price and it’s very satisfying building it.