Something's wrong with this Seiko 6105 movement but I don't know what to look for

[GPrideaux]

I was given a Seiko Captain Willard (6105-8110) watch by an owner who has had it in a drawer for years. With the usual disclaimers about my inexperience I offered to have a look at it for him. (He also gave me a 63MAS to look at ... I didn't realise it at the time, but he's had two of the most collectible Seiko divers sitting in a drawer for probably some decades). It wasn't running but didn't seem to have anything seriously wrong with it so I disassembled, cleaned and reassembled the movement as well as doing some work on the case which needs new seals and the crystal cleaned up, as well as the bezel click restored (which I've had help with in a different thread).

On reassembly everything seemed to go well. I did notice that the barrel arbor seems to have a lot of up/down movement in the barrel, but I don't have enough experience to really know how much movement to expect here.

It seemed to be running well, so I put my piezo microphone under the movement holder and fired up tg-timer 0.5.0 to see about regulating it. That's where it gets interesting. I've got it to a point where it's running fairly well regulated dial down, and other positions look pretty good too, but when I go back to dial down it's now running fast. Here's what it was showing just a little while ago, some 15 hours after a full wind. First dial down looks good:

Then dial up, still pretty good:

Turn it back over to dial down:

I want to stress that the only thing I have done is turn the movement over, then turn it back, and it's running fast. I also noticed that there are some additional sounds present in the bottom trace, about 20ms after the pallet lock on the tick and a bit later on the tock. To me that suggests that something is hitting something on the balance, but beyond that I don't know what to look for. Is this something that the looseness of the barrel arbor could contribute to, or should my focus be on the balance and its interaction with the pallet?

[GPrideaux]

Update: It's the balance, I think. Excessive end shake, and slightly out of true, and it's rubbing on the pallet cock. That's what the extra sounds are, I guess. The end shake is about 0.3mm, I think ... it moves about the thickness of the balance wheel. I don't have enough experience to know what it should be, but it seems significantly too much. It was tricky to film the wobble of the balance and how close it gets to the pallet cock; I ended up putting my microscope on its side so I could film it with the watch dial down. (The clip is with the watch fully assembled but no wind in the mainspring.)

Not sure what to do next. I could check the lower jewel setting, I guess, but I don't really know what to look for. Or is the problem more likely to be the balance arbor? The pivots look ok, but again, I lack the experience to be sure.

 

[GPrideaux]

Not sure if anyone's reading this thread, but I thought I'd round it off in case anyone comes later wondering what the outcome was.

Further investigation revealed that I had failed to completely tighten the pallet bridge. Although each screw only moved no more than about a quarter of a turn, this seems to have made a difference and the watch is running better with only a few seconds difference between dial up and dial down, and no sign of the extra sounds on the trace. Given that I don't have the tools or expertise to adjust the depth of the Diashock setting for the balance, I'm going to leave it even though I still think its end shake is excessive, at least until I can test it on the wrist for a few days once I've finished the case restoration. 

[mikepilk]

The endshake of the balance is too much. You need a little, but not too much. I try to imagine the correct amount as being about the pivot thickness.

The arbor to barrel end shake - you need a little, but not so much that the barrel can hit anything. To reduce it - 

It's also important to check the sideshake in the barrel and bridge. These are things I always do. Too much at the bridge, the hole can be closed using a rounded punch as shown below (then use a smoothing broach).

[GPrideaux]

I've been working on the balance, which I've had help with in another thread, and am starting to turn my attention now back to the barrel. I don't think the end shake of the arbor in the barrel is enough to result in the barrel hitting something it shouldn't  or disengaging from the centre wheel, but it may still be excessive -- I'm not sure. Neither the barrel nor the lid seem to be bowed, but the hole may well be worn. I held the arbor in tweezers and waggled it with my fingers to see how much it moves:

Is that enough to justify me trying to reduce it?

In case they help, I also took pics of both sides where the arbor emerges from the barrel. They look fine to me, but I don't have the experience to be able to know for sure:

 

Also, I think I posted this thread in the wrong place. It should be under Service, Repair, etc., but I can't see how to move it.

[RichardHarris123]

I've moved it for you. 

[AndyGSi]

For me that's way too much play.

[mikepilk]

28 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

For me that's way too much play.

And I was thinking it isn't too bad. Looks like the hole in the top plate needs closing a touch to reduce side shake, and pressed in a tad to reduce end shake. 

[AndyGSi]

32 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

And I was thinking it isn't too bad. Looks like the hole in the top plate needs closing a touch to reduce side shake, and pressed in a tad to reduce end shake. 

@GPrideaux Would be better if it was in a fixed clamp so could see it better.

Maybe what I'm seeing isn't as bad as it seems due to the whole thing moving around.

[oldhippy]

The barrel is worn. 

[mikepilk]

I can no longer edit my above post, showing how to adjust barrel end and side shake. I wanted to add a reference - the pics are from Unit 9A of the Joseph Bulova School of Watch Making.

Joseph Bulova School of Watch Making - Unit 9a.pdf

You can download all the units from 

https://mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

[GPrideaux]

6 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Would be better if it was in a fixed clamp so could see it better.

The never-ending acquisition of the necessary tools. I guess I'll need some broaches, too. Thank you all.

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 hours ago, GPrideaux said:

I've been working on the balance, which I've had help with in another thread, and am starting to turn my attention now back to the barrel. I don't think the end shake of the arbor in the barrel is enough to result in the barrel hitting something it shouldn't  or disengaging from the centre wheel, but it may still be excessive -- I'm not sure. Neither the barrel nor the lid seem to be bowed, but the hole may well be worn. I held the arbor in tweezers and waggled it with my fingers to see how much it moves:

Is that enough to justify me trying to reduce it?

In case they help, I also took pics of both sides where the arbor emerges from the barrel. They look fine to me, but I don't have the experience to be able to know for sure:

 

Also, I think I posted this thread in the wrong place. It should be under Service, Repair, etc., but I can't see how to move it.

Old books i have read suggest no more than an angular tilt of 5° of the barrel from the axis of the arbor. Even that seems to much. Look for evidence of too much tilt.....removal of plating from the plate or bridge and the outside edges of the barrel and lid flats

16 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

For me that's way too much play.

Seems too much to me as well, not loads but definitely too much. The torque from a wound mainspring pushes the barrel away from its axis ...more side pressure...when fully wound. Wear in the barrel and lid bearings is more likely to increase when some wear is already present.

[GPrideaux]

I made a simple clamp so we could properly assess the end and side shake. Initially the video below shows end shake -- more than I thought. Then to show side shake I push opposite ends of the barrel in opposite directions using tweezers in each hand. This is less than I thought -- only about half a degree of tilt between extremes, but still too much, I think. It then shows the side shake of each end of the arbor. It looks like there's more at the top (the barrel) than the bottom (the lid).

 

I can't see any evidence of wear on the bridge or the top of the barrel, but there is just a hint of an arc of brass visible on the mainplate and around the edge of the lid. I literally can't believe that 5º of tilt would ever be close to acceptable ... might the figure mentioned possibly have been 0.5º?

I think I need to try to work out whether the barrel or lid needs to be adjusted to reduce end shake, and the barrel hub needs to be reduced to bring the side shake down. I'll practice on one of my donor movements before trying it on the Seiko.

Edited November 17, 2024 by GPrideaux
Minor clarification.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, GPrideaux said:

I literally can't believe that 5º of tilt would ever be close to acceptable ... might the figure mentioned possibly have been 0.5º?

I will check on that and i always did think it was too much, i dont remember it stating 0.5 ° but you could be right.

Careful with hubs and flat stumps. Span the hub when closing the opposite side, use a concave stake to bring in the side walls of the hubs.

I've just made this classic mistake with a plate hub, i should have known much much better.... think i had a brain fart intervention

[mikepilk]

You need to close the hole in the lid (as shown above) to reduce sideshake, and press it down a touch to reduce endshake.

[GPrideaux]

I don't think the excessive end shake is from the barrel or lid being bowed outward; I think it's because the hub is worn. I assume that it will be ok to offset that by bowing the barrel and lid inward just a little.

I'm a bit confused about instructions 3A and 3B in the Bulova instructions. Should I be doing one or the other or both? I'm guessing that I should be doing 3B if the hub is tall enough to fit a stake over it without the stake hitting the bottom of the barrel, otherwise do 3A.

[mikepilk]

5 hours ago, GPrideaux said:

I don't think the excessive end shake is from the barrel or lid being bowed outward; I think it's because the hub is worn. I assume that it will be ok to offset that by bowing the barrel and lid inward just a little.

Yes, that's what I would do. Just press gently - it will only need a touch of adjustment. But close the holes first.

5 hours ago, GPrideaux said:

I'm a bit confused about instructions 3A and 3B in the Bulova instructions. Should I be doing one or the other or both? I'm guessing that I should be doing 3B if the hub is tall enough to fit a stake over it without the stake hitting the bottom of the barrel, otherwise do 3A.

It depends on how much adjustment is necessary, how much lip there is on the inside, and if you have the appropriate punch - which would close the hole without hitting the lid.

I would make both adjustments. Closing the hole at both ends makes it more robust. I have just done this exact job with a barrel lid. Close it until it's a tight fit, then use a smoothing broach to open it a touch. Only use light taps with the hammer, and keep checking the fit.

 

Edited November 18, 2024 by mikepilk

[AndyGSi]

Have you looked inside as I think you may struggle to close the barrel side with the lip.

 

[GPrideaux]

I've been practicing on a disposable barrel to try to get a sense of how much it takes to make a difference. (Not very much at all! Two or three taps between too loose and too tight, and even less to make a difference in end shake.) I did have a stake that worked for that barrel, but I haven't reopened the Seiko barrel yet. I won't do that until the broaches I've ordered arrive, probably in about another week or so.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 11/18/2024 at 12:25 PM, GPrideaux said:

assume that it will be ok to offset that by bowing the barrel and lid inward just a little.

Pay attention to the depth of your mainspring,  you dont want it to rub the underside of the lid if you bow it inwards.

On 11/18/2024 at 12:25 PM, GPrideaux said:

don't think the excessive end shake is from the barrel or lid being bowed outward; I think it's because the hub is worn. 

Do you think the barrel hub has reduced it's height through wear ?

On 11/18/2024 at 12:25 PM, GPrideaux said:

I don't think the excessive end shake is from the barrel or lid being bowed outward; I think it's because the hub is worn. I assume that it will be ok to offset that by bowing the barrel and lid inward just a little.

I'm a bit confused about instructions 3A and 3B in the Bulova instructions. Should I be doing one or the other or both? I'm guessing that I should be doing 3B if the hub is tall enough to fit a stake over it without the stake hitting the bottom of the barrel, otherwise do 3A.

I prefer this way, its the same as closing a tube or a ring/ split ring such as a collet. There are dedicated hour hand tube closers for the jewel press that have larger convex apertures compared to convex pushers.  This method would avoid possible height reduction of the barrel hub when you use a dome punch inside it. Otherwise just peen the outside of the barrel or lid using a flat hollow stump to span over the hub. I think most folk actually do dome punch both sides of the part, i used to but have now moved away from that idea. Dome punching countersinks the hole to a greater or lesser degree depending on the size of the dome. Generally with me it did not seem to affect the arbor/bearing seating from the inside as the hub perimeter still existed enough to ride the arbor shoulder...but still i just wanted a better way to do this.

On 11/18/2024 at 7:23 PM, AndyGSi said:

Have you looked inside as I think you may struggle to close the barrel side with the lip.

 

Depends on the tools you have available....but I've always disliked punching the hub part of the barrel and lid, its brass and it will flatten to whatever degree you give it or the outside some. If you can just span the hub with a stump and close the outside then the squash risk is avoided...but as Mike quite rightly states besides the potential hub height reduction, punching both sides is a more solid repair compared to only doing the outer. 

[GPrideaux]

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do you think the barrel hub has reduced it's height through wear ?

Yes, but it's not more than a suspicion at this stage. Neither the barrel nor the lid appear to be convex, and the only other way for the end shake to increase, as far as I can see, is by a reduction in the height of the hubs. (I'm assuming wear, but it could be compression at the hands of a previous repairer.)

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Pay attention to the depth of your mainspring,  you dont want it to rub the underside of the lid if you bow it inwards.

Thanks, I'll bear it in mind.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, GPrideaux said:

Yes, but it's not more than a suspicion at this stage. Neither the barrel nor the lid appear to be convex, and the only other way for the end shake to increase, as far as I can see, is by a reduction in the height of the hubs. (I'm assuming wear, but it could be compression at the hands of a previous repairer.)

Thanks, I'll bear it in mind.

As long as there remains about 0.1mm clearance for the mainspring.....so the inner barrel wall height less the thickness of the lid's main body ignoring any lips and then deduct 0.1 for clearance