Questions to ask when looking to buy a staking set

[ClaudioCavalli]

Hello,

I sent the following questions to the seller:

1. I know you mention that the holes line up with the anvil, but die plate aligned at a perfect 90°?
2. You mention that the holes in the die plate are clear, but what about the holes in the punches? Are these free of obstruction as well?
3. Are any of the accessories broken?
4. Before the cleaning, was there any pitting on the faces of the punches or the surface of the stumps?
5. Do you have pictures of the bottom of the main tool, looking up into it?
6. Do you have additional closeup pictures of the top of the punches, stakes, reamers and accessories?
7. How are you planning to package the kit before shipping?
I know I may be asking a lot, but this is a big purchase and would like to have a better view before committing.

Here are the answers:

1). It does like up perfectly at 90 degrees. The Inverto function works perfectly and the stake will slide from the top of the anvil to the bottom of the Inverto seat without any issues or binding once lined up properly and locked.
2). All the holes in the punches have been cleared during the cleaning and polishing process. They are cleaned in a vibratory wet polisher using IPA as the liquid. The media is stainless steel beads, specifically designed for jewelry polishing. It gives them a highly polished surface without removing any material, like a ceramic media would, while removing any surface rust. Another benefit is they are burnished in and this helps prevent flash rusting that is really common with steel polishing using other media.
Using the IPA also cleans out all the end holes in the stakes and degreases them all in one process. Using this method I can clean a large number of stakes at one time which helps reduce my labor time.
3) As far as I can tell there are no broken pieces on this set. Of course when they are purchased I do a final inspection under my desktop magnifying lamp, to insure nothing was missed in the previous steps. If anything is noticed on this final inspection it it replaced with another part. I have around 45-50 staking sets that are currently in some stage of being restored and numerous backups to most of the parts in these sets. The hard to find stakes I listed are the only issues I have had finding parts.
The reamers in this set seem to be a totally different version than their previous 18R sets. I have several 18R sets and these reamers and reamer holder are thicker and only fit that reamer holder. None of my other 18R sets have these type of reamers so that’s why it is missing #11. It appears they changed the type of reamers before they went out of business in the later years.
4). There is disuelta some sort of corrosion or surface rust on these parts when I get them. This set was a lot cleaner than most od the others I have and that makes me think this is one of their newest models before they went out of business. The stakes even seem to be marked differently than older sets. If there’s any significant damage they are added to a very large collection I have that won’t make it into a “good” set or they are discarded if broken entirely.
5) I’ll get a bunch for you here in awhile.
6). Same for the closeup photos.
7). Everything is decried separately in my sets before being mailed. All left side stakes are bundled together. Lightly oiled, wrapped in paper towel and taped as well as marked. Right side the same. All the accessory pieces are sent in a medicine bottle that is packed with paper towels to stop any movement and marked. All the small bundles are packed inside the wooden box tightly using bubble wrap to prevent any movement. The box is wrapped with bubble wrap and taped shut. I’ve had numerous people ship me sets I’ve bought without a care or any caution and its a main focus of my packing, to make sure everything arrives safely and without any damage in shipping.
Lastly the anvil is wrapped in bubble wrap and then taped up and secured outside the box inside the shipping box.
Hope that helps answer any questions. I’ll send some photos as soon as everyone goes to bed and I start my evening work in my hobby room.

 

I bolded the portions that I think raise flags.  I am still waiting for the pictures, but I am not sure I understand answer 2.  What is a vibratory wet polisher?  Is this an Ultrasonic cleaner, or some specialized tool for jewlery?

Is what he says about the more recents set and the reamer sizes correct?

thank you for any help,

claudio

[gpraceman]

14 minutes ago, ClaudioCavalli said:

Hello,

I sent the following questions to the seller:

1. I know you mention that the holes line up with the anvil, but die plate aligned at a perfect 90°?
2. You mention that the holes in the die plate are clear, but what about the holes in the punches? Are these free of obstruction as well?
3. Are any of the accessories broken?
4. Before the cleaning, was there any pitting on the faces of the punches or the surface of the stumps?
5. Do you have pictures of the bottom of the main tool, looking up into it?
6. Do you have additional closeup pictures of the top of the punches, stakes, reamers and accessories?
7. How are you planning to package the kit before shipping?
I know I may be asking a lot, but this is a big purchase and would like to have a better view before committing.

Here are the answers:

1). It does like up perfectly at 90 degrees. The Inverto function works perfectly and the stake will slide from the top of the anvil to the bottom of the Inverto seat without any issues or binding once lined up properly and locked.
2). All the holes in the punches have been cleared during the cleaning and polishing process. They are cleaned in a vibratory wet polisher using IPA as the liquid. The media is stainless steel beads, specifically designed for jewelry polishing. It gives them a highly polished surface without removing any material, like a ceramic media would, while removing any surface rust. Another benefit is they are burnished in and this helps prevent flash rusting that is really common with steel polishing using other media.
Using the IPA also cleans out all the end holes in the stakes and degreases them all in one process. Using this method I can clean a large number of stakes at one time which helps reduce my labor time.
3) As far as I can tell there are no broken pieces on this set. Of course when they are purchased I do a final inspection under my desktop magnifying lamp, to insure nothing was missed in the previous steps. If anything is noticed on this final inspection it it replaced with another part. I have around 45-50 staking sets that are currently in some stage of being restored and numerous backups to most of the parts in these sets. The hard to find stakes I listed are the only issues I have had finding parts.
The reamers in this set seem to be a totally different version than their previous 18R sets. I have several 18R sets and these reamers and reamer holder are thicker and only fit that reamer holder. None of my other 18R sets have these type of reamers so that’s why it is missing #11. It appears they changed the type of reamers before they went out of business in the later years.
4). There is disuelta some sort of corrosion or surface rust on these parts when I get them. This set was a lot cleaner than most od the others I have and that makes me think this is one of their newest models before they went out of business. The stakes even seem to be marked differently than older sets. If there’s any significant damage they are added to a very large collection I have that won’t make it into a “good” set or they are discarded if broken entirely.
5) I’ll get a bunch for you here in awhile.
6). Same for the closeup photos.
7). Everything is decried separately in my sets before being mailed. All left side stakes are bundled together. Lightly oiled, wrapped in paper towel and taped as well as marked. Right side the same. All the accessory pieces are sent in a medicine bottle that is packed with paper towels to stop any movement and marked. All the small bundles are packed inside the wooden box tightly using bubble wrap to prevent any movement. The box is wrapped with bubble wrap and taped shut. I’ve had numerous people ship me sets I’ve bought without a care or any caution and its a main focus of my packing, to make sure everything arrives safely and without any damage in shipping.
Lastly the anvil is wrapped in bubble wrap and then taped up and secured outside the box inside the shipping box.
Hope that helps answer any questions. I’ll send some photos as soon as everyone goes to bed and I start my evening work in my hobby room.

 

I bolded the portions that I think raise flags.  I am still waiting for the pictures, but I am not sure I understand answer 2.  What is a vibratory wet polisher?  Is this an Ultrasonic cleaner, or some specialized tool for jewlery?

Is what he says about the more recents set and the reamer sizes correct?

thank you for any help,

claudio

I've seen vibratory cleaners used for rifle and pistol cases.  Cleans and polishes prior to reloading them.  A variety of media can be used.

Hadn't heard that about the reamers.  More important that the reamers fit the holder and the holder fits the frame.  However, trying to find a replacement for the missing reamer might be an issue.

[ClaudioCavalli]

Here are the images provided by the seller.  I asked for pictures of the bottom of the main tool, and of the stakes stumps and accessories.  He also said that some of the staked have different labeling, and he included a picture of two stakes with the different labeling.  Finally he included a picture of the "newer" reamer and holder vs. the "older" type.

Any help greatly appreciated.

claudio

Edited November 4, 2024 by ClaudioCavalli

[gpraceman]

I wouldn't worry about the stake labeling.  I have a few without the K&D on them, but the stake number and specs coincide.

Now that I see a photo of those reamers, I have seen those two types.  I wouldn't let that detail stop you, if you like the set. 

I do wonder offhand if a Seitz reamer would work in that holder.  The Seitz reamers from my set are 2.5 mm diameter shank, with a bit of a taper down to the tip.  You can get new Seitz reamers from Cousins.  I got a couple to fill in some missing ones from my Seitz set.

If you don't pounce on that set, I'm sure that someone else will.

Edited November 4, 2024 by gpraceman

[gpraceman]

EDIT:  Looks like someone grabbed it.

[ClaudioCavalli]

That would be me.  I am taking a risk, i know i am taking a risk with no hitory, but i am hoping that the ebay guarantee will cover me in case anything goes wrong.

Will let you know once it is in my hands.

 

[gpraceman]

I hope it works out for you.

Once you get the set, you might want to do a cleanup on the frame.  The die plate holes look to be dirty.  If it was mine, I'd disassemble the frame, give it a good cleaning and lightly oil it.  Maybe put the die plate through an ultrasonic cleaner.  On mine, I also cold blued the central hub, stake holder and screws.

[ClaudioCavalli]

Planning on that.  I will ask questions before i do anything.

[ClaudioCavalli]

I received the staking set yesterday and between last night and tonight I examined all the parts, and I am extremely happy with my purchase.  The set looks even better than the pictures.

It is a complete set (the seller included also the 11 reamer that was missing from the listing).

Although the seller had no rating, he was very responsive and willing to share additional pictures and answer all questions, so I took a chance, and I am glad I did.

I examined all parts under the microscope and tested all stakes.  I found only 4 problems:

1. Stake 26 is not straight.
2. Stake 36 is slightly chipped on the face.
3. The smallest sub punch is slightly bent.
4. The third smallest sub punch

I already contacted the seller, but even if he does not have replacement parts for the broken items, I am ecstatic at my purchase.

I have a few questions:

1. Are there any tests I should perform to make sure that everything is kosher other than what I already did?
2. For the bent sub punch (see pictures) can I straighten it?  I was thinking of heating it before straightening it, and then annealing it.  My only fear is that the part is so small that heating it up too much would destroy it.  What temperature should I shoot for?  I have a hot plate that goes up to 400C.  Would this be enough to soften the material?  I know I have to heat it much higher when annealing, but is 400C enough to soften it?
3. One of the first things I want to do with the set is to practice reducing the diameter of the bridge hole for the barrel.  The video I watched tell me to use two round face solid punches to perform the procedure.  However, I do not have two such punches.  Can I use a flat stump and a round face punch and tap on one side and then the other?

Thank you,

claudio

[gpraceman]

9 hours ago, ClaudioCavalli said:

I received the staking set yesterday and between last night and tonight I examined all the parts, and I am extremely happy with my purchase.  The set looks even better than the pictures.

It is a complete set (the seller included also the 11 reamer that was missing from the listing).

Although the seller had no rating, he was very responsive and willing to share additional pictures and answer all questions, so I took a chance, and I am glad I did.

I examined all parts under the microscope and tested all stakes.  I found only 4 problems:

1. Stake 26 is not straight.
2. Stake 36 is slightly chipped on the face.
3. The smallest sub punch is slightly bent.
4. The third smallest sub punch

I already contacted the seller, but even if he does not have replacement parts for the broken items, I am ecstatic at my purchase.

I have a few questions:

1. Are there any tests I should perform to make sure that everything is kosher other than what I already did?
2. For the bent sub punch (see pictures) can I straighten it?  I was thinking of heating it before straightening it, and then annealing it.  My only fear is that the part is so small that heating it up too much would destroy it.  What temperature should I shoot for?  I have a hot plate that goes up to 400C.  Would this be enough to soften the material?  I know I have to heat it much higher when annealing, but is 400C enough to soften it?
3. One of the first things I want to do with the set is to practice reducing the diameter of the bridge hole for the barrel.  The video I watched tell me to use two round face solid punches to perform the procedure.  However, I do not have two such punches.  Can I use a flat stump and a round face punch and tap on one side and then the other?

Thank you,

claudio

 

Glad to hear that the set looks good and the transaction was smooth. 

As it is a vintage set, there are likely to be some issues.  Yours seem minor.  You might be able to find replacement stakes for 26 and 36 either from the seller or on eBay.  You could try straightening the one stake by clamping it in a drill press chuck and hitting it with a mallet opposite of the bend.  Not sure how successful that will be as I believe that they are hardened steel.  Trying to straighten the sub punch might end up with it broken.  Not sure just what the sub punches are useful for, as I haven't used any of mine yet.  Maybe someone more experienced can chime in on that.

On closing a barrel arbor hole, since that is an Inverto, you can find two adjacent numbered round tipped stakes with one placed on the bottom and the other used from the top.  You can also use a rounded stump on the bottom.

A bit of a note on organizing the stakes.  Not sure why K&D organized them as shown on their stake diagram.  You do have extra stakes in your set (above and beyond the 100 that would have come in the set), so it is good to group them together by type. I organized mine in columns, based on stake type, to make it easier on myself.

Strange that part of a balance staff remover is sitting on top of the frame, where the jeweling handle goes.  That should be down next to the other balance staff remover.

Edited November 9, 2024 by gpraceman

[linux]

On 11/3/2024 at 1:33 PM, gpraceman said:

I hope that your staking set is working out well for you.

Yes, love it!!!

Dave's watch parts currently has a 26C (but not a plain 26) and several 36 stakes available, used.

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/StakingTools.html

9 hours ago, ClaudioCavalli said:

I received the staking set yesterday...

Sorry but my last response got tacked on to a reply  to GP (who I purchased a very nice set from).  Here's what I said:

Dave's watch parts currently has a 26C (but not a plain 26) and several 36 stakes available, used.

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/StakingTools.html

 

I've bought several times from Dave and he's very response.  If he has the part it will be much cheaper than Ebay.  Looks like you got a nice set.

[ClaudioCavalli]

5 hours ago, gpraceman said:

Glad to hear that the set looks good and the transaction was smooth. 

As it is a vintage set, there are likely to be some issues.  Yours seem minor.  You might be able to find replacement stakes for 26 and 36 either from the seller or on eBay.  You could try straightening the one stake by clamping it in a drill press chuck and hitting it with a mallet opposite of the bend.  Not sure how successful that will be as I believe that they are hardened steel.  Trying to straighten the sub punch might end up with it broken.  Not sure just what the sub punches are useful for, as I haven't used any of mine yet.  Maybe someone more experienced can chime in on that.

On closing a barrel arbor hole, since that is an Inverto, you can find two adjacent numbered round tipped stakes with one placed on the bottom and the other used from the top.  You can also use a rounded stump on the bottom.

A bit of a note on organizing the stakes.  Not sure why K&D organized them as shown on their stake diagram.  You do have extra stakes in your set (above and beyond the 100 that would have come in the set), so it is good to group them together by type. I organized mine in columns, based on stake type, to make it easier on myself.

Strange that part of a balance staff remover is sitting on top of the frame, where the jeweling handle goes.  That should be down next to the other balance staff remover.

Yeah, I know I lucked out on the set.  The seller already told me he is sending out replacement stakes for sure and the sub-punches if he has them.

Yeah, I was going to ask if there was a method to the organizing madness but I forgot.  Glad to hear I am not the only person who finds the organization of the stakes questionable.

As for the balance staff remover part I have to admit I put it there because I could not figure out where it belongs! It is the only place where I could fit it and not rattle around.  I looked on the net, but could not find a picture that showed that part (or I could not see it in the picture, which is more likely).

5 hours ago, linux said:

Yes, love it!!!

Dave's watch parts currently has a 26C (but not a plain 26) and several 36 stakes available, used.

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/StakingTools.html

Sorry but my last response got tacked on to a reply  to GP (who I purchased a very nice set from).  Here's what I said:

Dave's watch parts currently has a 26C (but not a plain 26) and several 36 stakes available, used.

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/StakingTools.html

 

I've bought several times from Dave and he's very response.  If he has the part it will be much cheaper than Ebay.  Looks like you got a nice set.

Thank you for the web site.  Hopefully the seller sends me the stakes, so I will not have to buy them but just in case!!

[gpraceman]

2 hours ago, ClaudioCavalli said:

Yeah, I know I lucked out on the set.  The seller already told me he is sending out replacement stakes for sure and the sub-punches if he has them.

Yeah, I was going to ask if there was a method to the organizing madness but I forgot.  Glad to hear I am not the only person who finds the organization of the stakes questionable.

As for the balance staff remover part I have to admit I put it there because I could not figure out where it belongs! It is the only place where I could fit it and not rattle around.  I looked on the net, but could not find a picture that showed that part (or I could not see it in the picture, which is more likely).

Thank you for the web site.  Hopefully the seller sends me the stakes, so I will not have to buy them but just in case!!

Looks like the rod for the balance staff remover is in it's proper place in the set, next to the other remover.  If I recall correctly, that rod is threaded on one end and will screw into the balance staff remover body.

Cool that the seller is going so far to help you out.

8 hours ago, linux said:

Yes, love it!!!

Dave's watch parts currently has a 26C (but not a plain 26) and several 36 stakes available, used.

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/StakingTools.html

Sorry but my last response got tacked on to a reply  to GP (who I purchased a very nice set from).  Here's what I said:

Dave's watch parts currently has a 26C (but not a plain 26) and several 36 stakes available, used.

https://www.daveswatchparts.com/StakingTools.html

 

I've bought several times from Dave and he's very response.  If he has the part it will be much cheaper than Ebay.  Looks like you got a nice set.

Interesting.  He seems to have one of the stakes that I am missing from my set.  Though, there's no info on the condition of those stakes.

[ClaudioCavalli]

Hello again,

I am in the process of trying to identify all of the parts of the newly acquired set.  I would like to make a chart that I can tape to the inside of the box (I know I need help).  The stakes are easy to identify but I am having problems with the stumps as there are no markings that I can find and the measurements I am taking do not match any of the specifications.  Below are some pictures of parts I cannot seem to identify (some in the pictures I have identified and are marked with the appropriate part # but still would like confirmation).

I have provided dimensions that I think might help but if there is more information needed please ask.

Thank you

 

Edited November 11, 2024 by ClaudioCavalli

[gpraceman]

That first part is the stake lifter.  Press it down onto the desired stake and lift it out of the holder.  Push the end button on the lifter to release the stake.

Stumps are a harder thing to compare to the specs of which should have come with the set.  I tossed up my hands on that issue and was happy enough with having a variety of stumps.

Edited November 11, 2024 by gpraceman

[ClaudioCavalli]

Now that I think about it, the fifth picture might be the jewel pushers.

 

37 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

That first part is the stake lifter.  Press it down onto the desired stake and lift it out of the holder.  Push the end button on the lifter to release the stake.

Stumps are a harder thing to compare to the specs of which should have come with the set.  I tossed up my hands on that issue and was happy enough with having a variety of stumps.

The stake lifter is great, I no longer have to prick my fingers when lifting them!!!

Edited November 11, 2024 by ClaudioCavalli

[gpraceman]

12 minutes ago, ClaudioCavalli said:

Now that I think about it, the fifth picture might be the jewel pushers.

Those just look like regular stumps.  The jewel stumps have a bit of a weird profile to them.  The jewel pushers are the ones in the lower right of the set and fit into a holder.

Edited November 11, 2024 by gpraceman

[ClaudioCavalli]

1 hour ago, gpraceman said:

Those just look like regular stumps.  The jewel stumps have a bit of a weird profile to them.  The jewel pushers are the ones in the lower right of the set and fit into a holder.

Sorry I meant jeweling stumps.

[gpraceman]

1 minute ago, ClaudioCavalli said:

Sorry I meant jeweling stumps.

I guess that I cannot count.  The 5th photo does look like jeweling stumps.

[Pigskinfanboy]

On 11/10/2024 at 8:24 PM, ClaudioCavalli said:

Hello again,

I am in the process of trying to identify all of the parts of the newly acquired set.  I would like to make a chart that I can tape to the inside of the box (I know I need help).  The stakes are easy to identify but I am having problems with the stumps as there are no markings that I can find and the measurements I am taking do not match any of the specifications.  Below are some pictures of parts I cannot seem to identify (some in the pictures I have identified and are marked with the appropriate part # but still would like confirmation).

I have provided dimensions that I think might help but if there is more information needed please ask.

Thank you

 

Claudio, 

  Glad to find you on here and it’s great to see you learning and enjoying your new staking set ! If you have any issues please reach out and I’ll respond as soon as possible. Hopefully you’re still as excited as you were the day you got it.
   Did you make up your own stake mapping system ? That’s pretty cool ! Have you seen the actual factory build sheets/stake map for your set yet ? 
  I’ve included it here just in case. There’s a rhyme and reason for the way they organize these stakes in these sets. Once you learn that system it becomes almost second nature and make sense. It’s not even close to being as easy as the C&E Marshall systems but it isn’t too bad. 

 

Take care brother and thanks again for trusting me with your staking set needs. 
  Rick 

[ClaudioCavalli]

On 1/23/2025 at 8:08 PM, Pigskinfanboy said:

Claudio, 

  Glad to find you on here and it’s great to see you learning and enjoying your new staking set ! If you have any issues please reach out and I’ll respond as soon as possible. Hopefully you’re still as excited as you were the day you got it.
   Did you make up your own stake mapping system ? That’s pretty cool ! Have you seen the actual factory build sheets/stake map for your set yet ? 
  I’ve included it here just in case. There’s a rhyme and reason for the way they organize these stakes in these sets. Once you learn that system it becomes almost second nature and make sense. It’s not even close to being as easy as the C&E Marshall systems but it isn’t too bad. 

 

Take care brother and thanks again for trusting me with your staking set needs. 
  Rick 

Hi Rick,

I am still ecstatic with my set.  Still learning how to use it but have removed snd installed  several jewels and reduced the size of a main plate hole!!

[watchhammer]

Thought this wasn't worth starting a new thread.

This is for sale on my local marketplace. $250 US

I'm hoping you guys can give me some insight on condition, what its worth, what it's missing and what to check out if I go take a look at it. 

Thanks.

 

[gpraceman]

4 minutes ago, watchhammer said:

Thought this wasn't worth starting a new thread.

This is for sale on my local marketplace. $250 US

I'm hoping you guys can give me some insight on condition, what its worth, what it's missing and what to check out if I go take a look at it. 

Thanks.

 

What brand and model is it?  Seems like a K&D set, but can't tell which particular frame that is.  Maybe an inverto.  A 17 or 600 Series?

Any details on the set that the seller listed would be helpful.

[praezis]

Reading the thread, I found this:

On 11/9/2024 at 9:38 AM, ClaudioCavalli said:

One of the first things I want to do with the set is to practice reducing the diameter of the bridge hole for the barrel.  The video I watched tell me to use two round face solid punches to perform the procedure.

Don‘t know which yokel recommended this in his video (though have a suspicion).
You will destroy the vertical fit of the arbor this way. If you want to use this short term procedure, use a flat stump inside, the domed stake outside!

Frank

[Neverenoughwatches]

56 minutes ago, praezis said:

Don‘t know which yokel recommended this in his video (though have a suspicion).

He needs a good Slapp