Epilame, should I?

[mpe7383]

I have posed a hypothetical question regarding the use of epilame on a different thread that admittedly was straying off topic, I'll take some of the blame, sorry, I'll give it a go here.

As an amateur I've been restoring and repairing watches for a good few years just for myself, and I am happy with the results I achieve with my oiling and lubricating methods. I have never given any thought as to wether or not I should include the use of epilame in my methods. Should I be using it?

So I understand the theory behind the use of epilame to better hold the lubrication in place, but have recently been reading, on here and on other sites, that evidence has been seen that epilame wears off and then contaminates the oil you so carefully applied to the cleanest of components. It is also suggested that professionals within the industry also question the benefits of epilame, although I'm not sure if this is in reference to certain applications only.

So this leads me on to my hypothetical question, to you guys that have used and are experienced in epilame. Say you have two identical good quality movements with identicle lubrication, regulation and usage, the only difference is that one of the movements has been treated using epilame, which movement would start to show signs of performance degradation first? Are there definate proven benifits and will this product enhance my results?

Any thoughts appreciated.

[mikepilk]

I guess 'the industry' would not use it if there were no benefits or it caused problems - it's not cheap. 
Many companies have banned Rodico as it leaves a residue. So any problem with epilame and they would stop using it?

Where could it wear off and contaminate the oil?  I know some like ETA seem to treat most of the movement.

I use it on pallet + cap jewels and escape wheel. I run the balance for a few minutes so that it wears away (from the centre of the pallet jewels and escape wheel teeth) before oiling. It makes oiling the cap jewels easier. So, in this case, I don't see where it could wear away and cause problems. 

27 minutes ago, mpe7383 said:

So this leads me on to my hypothetical question, to you guys that have used and are experienced in epilame. Say you have two identical good quality movements with identicle lubrication, regulation and usage, the only difference is that one of the movements has been treated using epilame, which movement would start to show signs of performance degradation first? Are there definate proven benifits and will this product enhance my results?

You would need to run them for a number of years !

[mpe7383]

3 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I guess 'the industry' would not use it if there were no benefits or it caused problems - it's not cheap. 
Many companies have banned Rodico as it leaves a residue. So any problem with epilame and they would stop using it?

Where could it wear off and contaminate the oil?  I know some like ETA seem to treat most of the movement.

I use it on pallet + cap jewels and escape wheel. I run the balance for a few minutes so that it wears away (from the centre of the pallet jewels and escape wheel teeth) before oiling. It makes oiling the cap jewels easier. So, in this case, I don't see where it could wear away and cause problems. 

You would need to run them for a number of years !

So from my understanding, it's the contact points you mentioned, and I see your reasoning to run the movement for a while to wear off the epilame at these points before oiling, but does this not leave a residue that would need cleaning before oiling?

I guess what I'm driving at is that when you service a movement, you want to do the best possible job within your capabilities, you wouldn't for example skip a tricky cap jewel and spring, that needs to be removed and cleaned. Am I skipping a necessary part of servicing a movement by not applying epilame? Or is it just best practice? Or is it a bells and whistles finishing touch I don't need to loose sleep over? I'm noticing more and more that many people, amateurs and pros, do use this type of product so it has been a recent consideration. 

So my hypothetical movements, great, sounds like they will both run happily for a good few years. Say they both make it to the next service still identical, when inspected, would there be any noticeable difference? Would you be able to tell which movement had epilame?

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, mpe7383 said:

that evidence has been seen that epilame wears off and then contaminates the oil you so carefully applied to the

Who said it wears off ? I think its best to understand how it works first before siding an opinion.  We had this discussion about a year ago with different views what it does and how best to apply it In fact i contacted Episurf with that exact question and received a very nice prompt email from their head of technical, David periot ? Cant  quite remember his exact name? unfortunately i deleted it about two weeks ago while clearing out to make some message space , but the email is floating around in the forum's archives somewhere. Basically he declined to give instructions of its use and said different watchmakers use different application methods, some use the rub off method and some do not. I always used to think of the rub idea as creating a groove or divot through it to make walls where the lubrication will not go.  It does in fact increase surface tension, cohesive force where its placed. Instead of the lubrication wetting a surface it beads up, the molecules draw themselves together resisting the surface. I seem to remember there is a specific angle of the bead on the surface. Similarly to a freshly waxed car , water will bead on the paintwork surface. There are different names for the surface tension of oil and water, I'll try digging up the info. Anyway its easy to recognise an epilamed cap jewel and you will notice the effect, seen it many times still present on big old jewels. The oil beads up instantly and can be dragged around the surface of the jewel often making its way back to the center, its the pivot that keeps the oil in position.  Its also likely the properties of the old jewels play a part in this but its strange to watch it, reminds me of the old movie " The Blob "

So before i shoot myself, search Epilame / Fixadrop and read all the posts there.

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, mpe7383 said:

So my hypothetical movements, great, sounds like they will both run happily for a good few years. Say they both make it to the next service still identical, when inspected, would there be any noticeable difference? Would you be able to tell which movement had epilame?

So why would "the industry" be wasting money on using epilame if it didn't make a difference ?

They are the ones who would know. They need to save every penny to be competitive. Do we believe the word of 'amateurs', or the companies who have been manufacturing watches for decades, and are invested in making maximum profits?

In engineering (think car manufacturers) it's always the case of manufacturers being accused of cutting corners to save money. I can think of no other instance where they have been accused of overspending (i.e. using epilame) when not necessary. 

Edited October 31, 2024 by mikepilk

[Waggy]

I have mixed feelings on the whole issue, I use epilame but every time I do I have a nagging voice in the back of my mind asking if I am just "Drinking the Kool-Aid"... I think that, cost asside, there is little down side with the sensible use of epilame, so why not? But, I have yet to see real evidence that it either prolongs service time and/or reduces wear in components and/or increases amplitude. All of the 'evidence' I have seen is anecdotal which is understandable due to the complexity and multi-year testing that would be required to prove (or dis-prove) the case for using epilame.

So I remain on the fence, and I will continue to use it and ignore that nagging voice.... oh and the other one telling me to burn things... but that's a different story 

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, mpe7383 said:

epilame

oh minor little problem here perhaps? What is epilam?

 

Epilam is her variety of substances stearic acid I believe was the first one. But over the years has evolved into other substances and whatever these substances are dissolved in also plays a role in problems.

For instance several years ago somebody posted on the Internet that I know of shops that were very concerned about this the solvent that the epilam was dissolved in a evaporate it extremely fast. But unfortunately typically anytime something evaporates really fast it gets cold or basically removes the heat and the object gets cold. Unfortunately cold steel products in an environment of moisture in the air will form droplets of water and ultimately rust. I know several years ago this was a concern there was the website that had pictures of look at all the rust. I knew I shop that was so concerned that she had a hairdryer on radiant producing hot air so they can immediately place the part in the hot air to evaporate without getting the part cold at all.

then evolution the new stuff is environmentally friendly supposedly. It no longer instantly evaporate civet's left uncovered and Omega recommends it as the final rinse in the cleaning process with only a few items that are left out. Basically the balance wheels left out I know we've had discussions of epilam so somewhere I posted pictures of what's left out now. But Omega's amusing for this because in the early 60s they epilam everything except the balance wheel and pallet fork but in the case the balance wheel you were to put epilam on the pith wood and stick the pivots in so that they would have epilam. Then they went to just doing the escapement and now they're back to doing everything almost

then the modern shock jewels they been epilam with some unknown process probably a vapor process.

ETA  has technical communications with service information that up until recently didn't cover epilam at all. This is because most the watch companies had supplemental information that we never see typically. But in their manufacturing information sheets you find out that the balance staffs and escapement have epilam.

oh other minor little things that would affect the discussion would be as epilam older likes to evaporate as and evaporates the concentration of whatever increases people using older bottles with higher than whatever concentration conceivably will have thicker coatings and conceivably that may be causing some of this problem? In addition to the fact of all the various epilam's conceivably are different chemistry.

 

12 hours ago, mpe7383 said:

that evidence has been seen that epilame wears off and then contaminates

interesting so if it wears off causes a problem then what would be the outcome of that problem?

this is interesting because? In the case of the escapement it shouldn't be a problem because the escapement components are covered with epilam and allowed to run dry which wears the epilam off before you put the lubrication.

Oh and regarding epilam placement and wearing off I've attached a PDF where they talk about in manufacturing removing the epilam before lubricating.

Now the interesting problem is when you epilam the entire watch and it's all over the keyless and conceivably it will mix with lubrication but epilam is normally at a microscopic level so it can't really have that much effect although I am curious as to what bad affects people are seeing?

 

12 hours ago, mpe7383 said:

It is also suggested that professionals within the industry also question the benefits of epilame, although I'm not sure if this is in reference to certain applications only.

we also end up with application problems in your discussion? For instance if you look at modern technical sheets or Omega they use a very little grease and a heck of a lot of oil on the keyless. For instance as far as I can tell any time you use 9010 if you would like it to stay wherever you put it you should use epilam. If you look at Omega's oldest documents they use 9010 on the keyless the lightest oil and yes they epilam. But what if you were to use grease like 9405? In which case you wouldn't have to epilam the whole darn watch.

Then there is the escapement epilam's to keep the oil in place but what if you use 9415 which is a grease with interesting properties. So if you're using a grease on your escapement would you still need the epilam?

8 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I have yet to see real evidence that it either prolongs service time and/or reduces wear in components and/or increases amplitude. All of the 'evidence' I have seen is anecdotal which is understandable due to the complexity and multi-year testing that would be required to prove (or dis-prove) the case for using epilame.

one of my amusements with horological lubrication is the lack of why they do any of the things they do. they were also missing of the complete picture in other words the supplemental information of what we're supposed to be doing or not and what exactly the factory is doing as I mentioned up above epilam ing the balance staff is almost I don't think I've ever seen a reference to doing that right yet it's being done.

I would really be curious about the part on increasing amplitude I'm not sure how epilam would play any role in that at all.

then as long as are recommending things like oil on the keyless obviously keeping the oil in place epilam would be necessary.

The unfortunate problem of lubrication choices epilam or anything we do is it takes time to find out if you did poorly. in other words if you can examine a watch that you know you service X years ago you can look at it carefully and see if you chose wisely or whether you made a mistake.

 

 

 

GB1057607A-1 epilame.pdf

[rjenkinsgb]

The industry side may also change as newer safety regulations are introduced - eg. the some of the older common solvents are now classed as carcinogens, like carbon tetrachloride & more recently perchloroethylene (as in the original one-dip).

That could mean use is restricted until safer alternatives are available?

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, mikepilk said:

So why would "the industry" be wasting money on using epilame if it didn't make a difference ?

An easy answer Mike ......They wouldn't. .

43 minutes ago, Waggy said:

oh and the other one telling me to burn things... but that's a different story 

Yeah I'd have that checked out Scott, might not end well, or at least direct the feelings towards Bergeon's accounting department.

30 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

tetrachloride & more recently perchloroethylene (as in the original one-dip).

 

Wonderful stuff , i used to purposely sit in my local Rex laundrette when i was a nipper of about 5 or 6 just to keep warm and breathe in the Perc odour that filled the room. 

[mpe7383]

To make it clear, I have no doubt to the effectiveness of these products, they do exactly what they are designed to do. And quite rightly has been pointed out that why would the big companies use it if it made little or no difference. I think the differrnce here is that as part of the manufacturing process, the big companies will have the ability to apply the product or remove the product from contact areas with precision and therefore get the optimum results. Is there is a method for treating components at my work bench then removing the product from the contact areas prior to installation?

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

That could mean use is restricted until safer alternatives are available?

if you look at the link below they claim that their products are environmentally friendly. They also appear to have varying formulas for very materials I wonder how that affects this discussion?

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/epilames

[rjenkinsgb]

That is one of the newer, safer solvents developed over the last few years - I was referring to the historical start-stop and variations in usage mentioned in some posts above, and safety factors in yours.

eg. One-dip (Trichlorethylene / PERC) has only recently been replaced by B-Dip (Benzine).

I remember Carbon Tetrachloride being banned, after common use for many decades - and being commonly replaced by PERC, believed at the time to be a safe alternative. Things change as risks are discovered and regulations change.

Look at Radium as an extreme example of changes in safety perceptions and regulation - in the early 20th century it was added to numerous things from "Health elixirs" to clothing & cosmetics!

 

[mpe7383]

17 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Who said it wears off ? I think its best to understand how it works first before siding an opinion.  We had this discussion about a year ago 

Nice friendly response on this friendly forum. I am considering wether or not I should be using epilame and therefore I am reasearching the product and asking the good members of this forum for their input. Now if I'm reading that there is a possibility that if the product could possibily contaminate the lubrication, is this not a good place to seek an opinion?

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, mpe7383 said:

Nice friendly response on this friendly forum. I am considering wether or not I should be using epilame and therefore I am reasearching the product and asking the good members of this forum for their input. Now if I'm reading that there is a possibility that if the product could possibily contaminate the lubrication, is this not a good place to seek an opinion?

Just advice not criticism, the thread i mentioned, will contain most of the answers you're looking for .

[mpe7383]

Ok, so I have read through the previous thread on epilame, and there is good information on the product. In fact general internet searches reveal nothing but good reviews on this type of product. 

But for me, there is one aspect of the application that troubles me and has been touched upon within the other thread. The procedure for most people that use it is to run the movement dry for a while to rub off the coating at the contact areas to enable the lubricant to do it's job where it needs to. But where is the rubbed off cured coating of epilame going? I suspect nowhere, these microscopic fragments will be clinging onto whatever scraped them off, which just so happens is exactly where you want the oil to be. Added to this, lets not forget that the escapement has been run for a while with zero lubrication, so you can probably add some microscopic metal shavings into the mix. So would this not contaminate the oil the very instant it's applied?

Then of course if you then consider any end shake movement that wasn't compensated for when running the movement dry, that could mean further contamination after oiling.

Unless the movement is once again stripped down after the dry run to clean off the removed coating particles and therefore risk cleaning off the coating you want to remain in place, I can't see how you could avoid contamination. From what I have been reading this step is not common practice.

I should of course add that I may well be completely wrong in what I am saying and willing to accept that this isn't the case. As stated, I am just someone, trying to think this through logically, considering if I should be using these products as part of my regime.

As to my topic title of 'should I', well I'm quickly coming to the decision of no, at my level and for just working on my personal watches this isn't an expense I need to justify.

I'll just use the money for more watches.

And of course, thanks to all for your input.

Edited November 2, 2024 by mpe7383
Added content

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, mpe7383 said:

Ok, so I have read through the previous thread on epilame, and there is good information on the product. In fact general internet searches reveal nothing but good reviews on this type of product. 

But for me, there is one aspect of the application that troubles me and has been touched upon within the other thread. The procedure for most people that use it is to run the movement dry for a while to rub off the coating at the contact areas to enable the lubricant to do it's job where it needs to. But where is the rubbed off cured coating of epilame going? I suspect nowhere, these microscopic fragments will be clinging onto whatever scraped them off, which just so happens is exactly where you want the oil to be. So would this not contaminate the oil the very instant it's applied?

Then of course if you then consider any end shake movement that wasn't compensated for when running the movement dry, that could mean further contamination after oiling.

Unless the movement is once again stripped down after the dry run to clean off the removed coating particles and therefore risk cleaning off the coating you want to remain in place, I can't see how you could avoid contamination. From what I have been reading this step is not common practice.

I should of course add that I may well be completely wrong in what I am saying and willing to accept that this isn't the case. As stated, I am just someone, trying to think this through logically, considering if I should be using these products as part of my regime.

As to my topic title of 'should I', well I'm quickly coming to the decision of no, at my level and for just working on my personal watches this isn't an expense I need to justify.

I'll just use the money for more watches.

And of course, thanks to all for your input.

The coating is supposed to be applied as an ultra thin microscopic layer, any rubbed off should be negligible ??......and then to wonder what happened to all those watches that were completely exposed to a coating at the factory. ...and as to what condition they eventually ended up in....to imagine of all the teeth meshing together and grinding going on ?? Sounds like a big mess up of a mistake...i doubt it very much.... but then who knows maybe some short term experience occurred with a particular product or batch. I'm sure the factories of today would not continue to use any product that was found to have a bad effect. So whatever you are using today it will be safe to your watch...and make a difference....lots of pros out there that  will fully test what they use...I'm positive Nicklesilver would not use anything that would be detrimental and not waste money if it did not benefit. 

[tcolgate]

FWIW. Alex Hamilton has a great video on epilame, with a nice detailed discussion of exactly where/when/why it's suitable.

  His conclusion IIRC:

- he doesn't use it in his own watches.

- uses it on professional work as "it is expected"

- don't bother if you are just starting

- only apply directly to surfaces with a syringe, 

[Neverenoughwatches]

I am confused by the fact that HectorLooi mentioned that his mentor, not only does not epilame he also does not lubricate the pallet stones or the escape wheel teeth  and concluded that it made no improvement to the running of the watch.....the amplitude figure ?  Short term effect ?  Long term effects ?    My concern ...not if it improved or not performance short term ....lubrication has more than one role......to reduce wear is higher up on my priority list.  Pallet stones thrashing escapewheel teeth without lube....millions of times...contact faces have friction....thats something to think about...isn't it ?

[HectorLooi]

I think that was a phase he was going through. The last time I spoke with him, he's back to epilame and lubricating the pallet stones.

His think-tank group from China came up with a new invention, a epilame pen. It has either a felt tip or brush tip and a reservoir for epilame. Something like a auto-oiler and felt tip pen. It reduces evaporation of the epilame and allows precise placement of epilame. Let's see if it makes it to market.

Edited November 2, 2024 by HectorLooi
Typo

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I think that was a phase he was going through. The last time I spoke with him, he's back to epilame and lubricating the pallet stones.

His think-tank group from China came up with a new invention, a epilame pen. It has either a felt tip or brush tip and a reservoir for epilame. Something like a auto-oiler and felt tip pen. It reduces evaporation of the epilame and allows precise placement of epilame. Let's see if it makes it to market.

Sounds like an interesting idea hector 

[JohnR725]

On 11/1/2024 at 1:27 AM, mpe7383 said:

I think the differrnce here is that as part of the manufacturing process, the big companies will have the ability to apply the product or remove the product from contact areas with precision and therefore get the optimum results. Is there is a method for treating components at my work bench then removing the product from the contact areas prior to installation?

I think somewhere in the discussion group we have covered epilam perhaps before may be perhaps? But the basic procedure is the escape wheel is treated. Pallet fork is a little more tricky as you only want to treat the pallet stones themselves You Do not want to treat the whole pallet fork. Then depending upon which epilam you have There allowed to dry sometimes with warm air sometimes without. Preferably the dust free environment. Then it goes in the watch is run from little bit the running action will scrape off the epilam..Then lubricate with your favorite method for lubricating the escapement.

Oh and I always think of epilam for the escapement I keep forgetting they liked epilam the whole darn watch so maybe we're not even discussing the escapement epilam as I'm not sure you specify where the problem actually is?

Edited November 2, 2024 by JohnR725

[nickelsilver]

Like John says, you want to treat the pallet stones, but not the fork slot or pivots. When I had my machine that applied stearic acid vapor, the instruction was to not treat the fork at all, or balance, but everything else got it; this machine was made in the 60s. 25 years ago we were taught to treat the whole fork with the more modern Fixodrop (and service manuals also said this), but it was found that areas like the fork pivots and slot, that remain unlubricated, could have issues.

 

When running the escapement dry to "wear off" the epilame, the actual epilame layer is like a couple of molecules thick, and the contact area also extremely small. There is no measurable amount of epilame removed. But the now non-treated areas hold the lubricant, while the treated areas prevent it from creeping away. There is no issue with the epilame contaminating the oil.

 

I use it on all watches, at least the escape wheel, pallet stones, and cap jewels. Depending on the design of the movement, I might treat other areas if there's a chance of oil creeping away.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, tcolgate said:

only apply directly to surfaces with a syringe, 

I cant honestly see that working, way to much, just a touch needed from something absorbed in the stuff.

[mpe7383]

A little dramatic Neverenough, at no point do I say that this treatment causes catastrophic failure and destruction, on the contrary, I fully appreciate the excellent qualities  and benefits of this coating and understand it's widespread use in the industry. As outlined above, my concern through my logical thought process was the after market application method, and thanks to the excellent response from nikelsilver and others my concern has been addressed and should I decide to take the plunge and gear up for epilame, I have nothing to worry about.

Hectorlooi's epilame pen sounds like a good idea.

[tcolgate]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I cant honestly see that working, way to much, just a touch needed from something absorbed in the stuff.

He shows the technique in the video, essentially just pushing a droplet to the end of a syringe and then "dipping" the pallet stones into the droplet (easier to see than describe)