Epilame, should I?

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, mpe7383 said:

But for me, there is one aspect of the application that troubles me and has been touched upon within the other thread. The procedure for most people that use it is to run the movement dry for a while to rub off the coating at the contact areas to enable the lubricant to do it's job where it needs to. But where is the rubbed off cured coating of epilame going? I suspect nowhere, these microscopic fragments will be clinging onto whatever scraped them off, which just so happens is exactly where you want the oil to be. Added to this, lets not forget that the escapement has been run for a while with zero lubrication, so you can probably add some microscopic metal shavings into the mix. So would this not contaminate the oil the very instant it's applied?

Then of course if you then consider any end shake movement that wasn't compensated for when running the movement dry, that could mean further contamination after oiling.

Unless the movement is once again stripped down after the dry run to clean off the removed coating particles and therefore risk cleaning off the coating you want to remain in place, I can't see how you could avoid contamination. From what I have been reading this step is not common practice.

 

18 minutes ago, mpe7383 said:

A little dramatic Neverenough, at no point do I say that this treatment causes catastrophic failure and destruction,

erm ok

[nickelsilver]

For doing the pallet stones, I have worked with guys who use a pipette, like the above mentioned syringe, dipping the stone into the end. Another uses a very fine artist brush to apply it. I grab the fork in a pair of tweezers, then dip closed #5s into the Fixodrop to suck some up, and open them slightly, dipping the stones into the product now between the tweezer tips (I think my method is the least practical, but I'm used to it).

 

The thing is, according to the instructions, the part to be treated should soak in the product for some time. You don't get that with the above application techniques. Still, seems to work fine. I should ask someone who's done brand training how Omega or Swatch recommend applying it.

Edited November 2, 2024 by nickelsilver

[Neverenoughwatches]

20 minutes ago, tcolgate said:

He shows the technique in the video, essentially just pushing a droplet to the end of a syringe and then "dipping" the pallet stones into the droplet (easier to see than describe)

I'm still imaging that its too much. I have watched that video before , cant remember how closely detailed it was.

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

25 years ago we were taught to treat the whole fork with the more modern Fixodrop (and service manuals also said this), but it was found that areas like the fork pivots and slot, that remain unlubricated, could have issues.

This image is from Rolex's documentation for their 3135 calibre. I found it in this post by @Jon. I believe the instruction is about 20 years old so perhaps it has been updated since. It's not obvious what the strategy is but perhaps Rolex want to make sure to avoid getting oil onto the fork pivots and pivot holes.

[spectre6000]

But it's OK on the plate side jewels...?

Taking a step back to look at the forrest (for the trees), the point of this stuff is to keep the lubrication where it's intended. If you don't use too much oil, surface tension and capillary action do a fine job of this, right? Did for a long time anyway. At some point, I suppose, the oils could migrate away, but how long does that take? If a service interval on your typical watch is 2 years (Omega's Co-Axial movements get a bit longer), and one assumes this is due to breakdown/oxidation of the oils, are you gaining anything? I am definitely no Epliame or Fix-o-drop expert, but it seems to me this is one of those deals where you're chasing the last 1% of perfection in the idiom I can't quite remember where 99% of your time is spent chasing the last 1% of perfection. By all means, chase it, but I wouldn't worry about it too much until you've achieved the 99th percentile. Just a little perspective...

[GuyMontag]

5 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

I use it on all watches, at least the escape wheel, pallet stones, and cap jewels. Depending on the design of the movement, I might treat other areas if there's a chance of oil creeping away.

Do you coat the entire escape wheel? If so, do you do anything to remove the epilame from the pivots?

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

Do you coat the entire escape wheel? If so, do you do anything to remove the epilame from the pivots?

Yes the entire escape wheel, the issue is when the contact points are not lubricated as in the case of pallet fork pivots. 

I guess it doesn't matter where the epilame lays, the problem is when is epilame between two dry points of contact.

And this may all just apply to a type of epilame at a particular point in time.

This happens a lot a name that is applied to many different things, that dont all fully relate.

Edited November 2, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[nickelsilver]

29 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

Do you coat the entire escape wheel? If so, do you do anything to remove the epilame from the pivots?

Yes, like Never said, it's no issue on parts that get lubricated. Capillary attraction keeps the oil at the pivot-jewel interface.

[Neverenoughwatches]

But the escapewheel is only one half of the job..... that would keep oil from travelling to parts of the escapewheel that it shouldn't be going to. The aim is keep the oil exactly where it is placed....at the draw and impulse faces of both the escapewheel teeth AND the pallet stones.

Sorry locking faces....i sometimes seem to muddle that up.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

When I had my machine that applied stearic acid vapor, the instruction was to not treat the fork at all, or balance, but everything else got it; this machine was made in the 60s. 25 years ago we were taught to treat the whole fork with the more modern Fixodrop (and service manuals also said this), but it was found that areas like the fork pivots and slot, that remain unlubricated, could have issues.

I think the last time we discussed vaporizing stearic acid somebody came along and said the vapors were unhealthy for us. I always wondered if vaporized stearic acid was the best way as the coating would be very uniform and very thin. versus people in the field who interpret things and conceivably will have differing concentrations of the liquid. Or specifically as the liquid evaporates out of their precious little bottle the concentration increases and the layer increases possibly to a bad level.

Then problems of time and instructions. For instance I'm attaching a PDF a very good guide on cleaning watches for the most part. Omega in 1957 page 9 and for those people aren't going to read the PDF which would be their loss here's an image. Notice I highlighted a few things like the problem of if the coating is too thick. So basically the entire watch with the exception of the balance complete but you do do the pivots and the pallet fork. This of course raises up the problem of technical literature over time changes and typically it's not explained why although here it does tell us why not to do the pallet fork at least in 1957.

oh and thinking of Omega 1957 in the middle is a really nice section on where to apply the various lubricants. My favorite here of course is the choice of lubrication. So notice that all the components the keyless and the crown wheel are all lubricated with something called Synt-A-Lube? You will also notice that a different lubrication is used for the balance pivots I don't think I have any specifications for what that is. But my amusement is the keyless lubrication today and I have a link to the manufacture of this nifty keyless lubrication goes by a number of 9010. Which we typically do not think of as a lubrication for keyless. I do find lubrication choices the manufacturers quite amusing especially over time.

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

 

 

Oiling Omega watches 1957.PDF

[VWatchie]

3 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

But it's OK on the plate side jewels...?

No, I don't think so, but it's less of a risk that the oil spreads to the plate side jewel and pivot as the distance from the fork staff to the plate side is further away.

[JohnR725]

I found a PDF that might help answer a few questions.

entire document is a really nice thing to read but I snipped out the important image of showing what epilam is supposed to do and how it's supposed to work.

 

Antispread Epilimisation Epilame.pdf