Balance staff for '60s Citizen alarm (caliber 980?)

[fellerts]

Hi all,

I recently picked up a vintage Citizen alarm without knowing what I was getting myself into. One of the balance staff pivots are broken, and I'm having a rather hard time trying to source a new one. The problem is that I'm not sure what caliber this movement is. It seems to be based on the AS 1475 but is an in-house Citizen movement. This particular alarm model might not even have been sold in the west, so it's no wonder that information is scarce.

I can't see any identifying marks on the mainplate. A few sources seem to indicate that this is a caliber 980 [0][1]. It might also be the 9810 or even the 9812 [2]... Sourcing staffs for the 9810 and 9812 seems doable but I haven't found anything for the 980. For what it's worth, this appears to be a 12 ligne, 19 jewel movement with no balance shock protection. There appears to be a matching donor for sale on eBay at the moment which is an option, but I'd prefer to source a new balance staff if possible.

I can try to take some measurements of the old balance staff, but I don't have a micrometer so I'm not sure how much that would help.

I also posted to wristsushi in the hopes that some Japanese watch enthusiasts migth be able to help: https://wristsushi.proboards.com/thread/26156/greetings-norway-balance-staff-needed

Any ideas?

[0] vintagecitizenwatches.com/2015/08/16/citizen-alarm-disk-19-j-phynox-center-second/

[1] sweep-hand.org/the-hand-winders/

[2] grupposeiko1881.forumfree.it/?t=79953390

[caseback]

Is it a Phynox?  I've seen them with a 19 jewel calibre 980 movement.

[fellerts]

3 minutes ago, caseback said:

Is it a Phynox?  I've seen them with a 19 jewel calibre 980 movement.

It is indeed 19 jewels, and the dial says Phynox. How did you identify that it was a 980 movement? Do you know anything more about the 980?

[caseback]

3 minutes ago, fellerts said:

It is indeed 19 jewels, and the dial says Phynox. How did you identify that it was a 980 movement? Do you know anything more about the 980?

I've seen one for sale recently. I'll see if I can find it. Hang on..

Here it is:

https://veterantimesint.com/products/vintage-citizen-alarm?srsltid=AfmBOoobd2C16ORjIYRAGSqsIWTTTsdybUERKukjr7xZtqxW2kt1wwYR

Try to get measurements of the existing staff and find one that fits or is close in an DCN or Ronda catalogue. Perhaps someone in your area has a feintaster?

Edited November 5, 2024 by caseback

[fellerts]

Thanks @caseback, most sources seem to agree that this is a 980. If only I could find a parts list for this movement... Even the bestfit books yielded nothing. Later revisions (9810, 9812, 3100, 3102, etc...) seem to have Ronda staff equivalents, but those are all shock-protected.

Maybe it's an excuse to step into the rabbit hole of staff turning... de Carle urges the student to start out on the watchmaker's turns, maybe I should heed his advice.

Edited November 5, 2024 by fellerts

[caseback]

It's a great excuse to get a watchmakers lathe, a feintaster, and..., and... 

I have recently made my first working balance staff and posted the result on this forum after getting feedback and encouragement on my first attempt. There is a lot of help available here. 

[LittleWatchShop]

I picked up one at the flea market in the last 12 months ($5).  This one is 17 jewels however.  Its an AS1475.  It has some rust issues, but I found all the parts I needed at Cousins.

Edited November 5, 2024 by LittleWatchShop

[nevenbekriev]

The OP staff is press-fit, like in Seiko and Orient. The AS staffs are riveted type

Edited November 5, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[caseback]

[fellerts]

2 hours ago, caseback said:

I have recently made my first working balance staff and posted the result

I saw that, impressive work! Your post is what got me thinking that mere mortals also have a chance at making useful stuff out of metal. I've been amazed at what the machinists on youtube can do, but it's always seemed like witchcraft... But do did watchmaking, until I got into it. Well, a lot of it still baffles me to be honest.

13 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

The OP staff is press-fit, like in Seiko and Orient. The AS staffs are riveted type

Yes, and I wonder if the old staff was even the correct one. The hairspring collet and roller are both slightly cracked as if forced onto a too-large staff. I realize that at this point I should consider replacing the balance complete, but where's the fun in that.

3 hours ago, caseback said:

I've seen one for sale recently. I'll see if I can find it. Hang on..

Here it is:

https://veterantimesint.com/products/vintage-citizen-alarm?srsltid=AfmBOoobd2C16ORjIYRAGSqsIWTTTsdybUERKukjr7xZtqxW2kt1wwYR

Hang on, the serial number stamped into the case back of the one you linked to matches mine! The exact perlage pattern doesn't match though, so can't be the same case back. Is "1407096" not the serial number then? I'm confused.

[fellerts]

 

On 11/5/2024 at 7:20 PM, caseback said:

Perhaps someone in your area has a feintaster?

I was able to score a good deal on a vintage Feintaster on the local fleabay I've taken some measurements and produced a crude drawing (units in 1/100 mm):

Now I've been through the bestfit, DCN and Ronda catalogues but I can't seem to find any non-riveted staffs, i.e. staffs where J=K in Ronda's case. Am I looking in the wrong place for the wrong thing?

Don't tell my significant other -- I've started a search for vintage lathes in case I need to turn one myself...

Edited November 21, 2024 by fellerts

[caseback]

I believe but I'm not 100% sure that the Ronda catalogue has a column "mod" and code "B" is used for non-rivited staffs. My printout doesn't have a legend explaining the different model codes..

The dcn catalogue apparantly shows a "/" between de F and G value to indicate there is a taper. Mind you, the Ronda and DCN dimensions are not always the same as you can see in the photo's.

[AndyGSi]

From the information I've got it would appear the 9810 mentioned earlier is correct.

 

[fellerts]

I attempted to measure the distance between the cap jewels and came to 2.78 mm. Some of the DCN staffs in stock at Cousins do come close and are marked "à chasser" with F/G measurements, which I'm now convinced means they are tapered and friction-fit like you suggested @caseback.

I'll order a couple different ones and see how it does. Thanks everyone!

[fellerts]

Quick update here: I replaced the staff with DCN #612 which seems to be a very good fit. The balance is running happily.

This movement had more problems though. I've cleaned and lubricated it, and the timegrapher shows that the rate and amplitude vary with a period of around 60s. The variance is on the order of 40 s/d. Indeed, one of the jewels for the fourth wheel is chipped. I don't know if this is the root cause of the variance, but I can't see anything else mechanically wrong with the train of wheels apart from this.

I don't own a jeweling tool, so I'll put this movement aside until I do and can replace the chipped jewel.