Looking for balance wheel problems recommendations

[FredrikP]

Hi,

I'm a newbie to watch repair and would like some recommendations around balance problems I've encountered. Currently looking into Citzen Homer series of movements, trying to learn as much as possible,

Attached are two examples of problems I've encountered.

1) Missing jewel

2) Balance staff broken

So here are my questions:

1) Is it feasible to repair these problems?

2) What tools do I need and what brand of tools would you recommend to use?

Br Fredrik

Edited November 10, 2024 by FredrikP
Posted to early

[AndyGSi]

Welcome to the forum.

Depending on the movement you may be able to buy replacement jewels either original or generic.

With the balance staff you'd need a lathe and a lot of experience to either repair or make a new one so again your
best option would be to just get either a new staff or even complete balance, again depending on the movement.

[FredrikP]

Thanks for response!

According to Ranfft dB for 1800 movement the replacement balance staff is Ronda 5209, just ordered it of ebay. What tools do i need to replace the balance staff ?

For the jewel is it possible to dismount a jewel from another balance and mount it on the one missing the jewel? Is the jewel mounted with shellac? 

[praezis]

what happened to the jewel? In 1st pic it is there, in 2nd it is missing.

These jewels are available, you can also harvest an identical one from another movement. Fixed with a bit of shellac.

[Nucejoe]

 You will need staking tool and plenty of practice, just to restaff this balance wheel properly. 

 Many beginners are happy as long as their watch  runs and keep good time on wrist, posing the balance is next, so you need a tool for that.

I wouldn't recommend any of the above for beginners, cuz your looking at approx 1K then you might decide watch repair isn't your thing.

Your best bet is to buy a new complete balance, next comes regulating the movement. 

Rgds

 

 

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, FredrikP said:

What tools do i need to replace the balance staff ?

You'll need levers to remove then spring, then a roller remover for the roller and finally a staking set to remove the staff.

[FredrikP]

I've been exploring on the 1800 movement from citizen and currently have a couple of movements to work with. Two of the movements that i bought have problem with the balance as the pictures attached, and I want to explore fixing them.

Any recommendations around staking set that I should be look for?

[AndyGSi]

5 minutes ago, FredrikP said:

I've been exploring on the 1800 movement from citizen and currently have a couple of movements to work with. Two of the movements that i bought have problem with the balance as the pictures attached, and I want to explore fixing them.

Any recommendations around staking set that I should be look for?

I think at this stage in your journey your best option would be to get complete balances.

You can then look more into what's involved with replacing a staff on a test movement further down the line.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, FredrikP said:

I'm a newbie to watch repair and would like some recommendations around balance problems I've encountered.

Ideally someone new to watch repair should practice on watches that do not require as many tools as you're going to need to replace the balance staff. Then ideally should practice on watches and learn how they work learn how to take apart put them back together learned what a balance wheel should look like when it's functioning and slowly build up a skill set before tackling replacing a balance staffs. Which is why typically most people will purchase a balance Complete as they don't have to deal with all the problems and purchase the thousands of dollars of tools that you really should have to replace the balanced staff jewels etc.

17 minutes ago, FredrikP said:

Any recommendations around staking set that I should be look for?

To avoid running two simultaneous discussions here is a link to somebody who's ask the exact same question about a staking set.

 

 

[caseback]

On the other hand, if you are already sure you want to invest not just time but also some €'s in tools, go watch some of the several available video's on the subject on youtube (and  watch them several times more until you can visualize the steps) and invest in the tools required.

The tools I used for my first balance staff replacement were:

- handlevers to remove the hairspring;

- roller table remover (lots of types available, but I used the Bergeon 2810)

- Clone horia tool to remove the wheel from the staff (best practice would be to cut the rivet using a lathe, but that raises the complexity level and the investment in tools..). I use the Horia clone with original Seitz pushers because their quality is better and I have them. 

- Staking set.

We don't know what your skill level is, but if you feel comfortable giving it a go: by all means, watch some video's, work careful and give it a go! You're not working on expensive pieces, so why not.

 

[JohnR725]

34 minutes ago, caseback said:

- Clone horia tool to remove the wheel from the staff (best practice would be to cut the rivet using a lathe, but that raises the complexity level and the investment in tools..). I use the Horia clone with original Seitz pushers because their quality is better and I have them

I am curious about how exactly do you do this and why you did not use your staking set to remove the staff?

41 minutes ago, caseback said:

On the other hand, if you are already sure you want to invest not just time but also some €'s in tools, go watch some of the several available video's on the subject on youtube (and  watch them several times more until you can visualize the steps) and invest in the tools required.

I find actually multiple sources of information are good. Like in addition to the videos books are nice in the absence of books websites where you can download PDFs of the book. So for instance the website below has lots of PDFs. The ones that you should be looking at would be 1945 TM9-1575 War Department Technical Manual Basically a training manual for watch repair. Then a little farther down  Joseph School of Watch Making. This was the textbook for the Bulova school of watchmaking and you want to download the entire book because you're going to need a lot of sections out of this book to replace a balance staff.

https://mybulova.com/vintage-bulova-catalogs

 

 

 

 

[caseback]

I place an anvil that just fits over the staffs shoulder in the bottom part of the tool to support the wheel as close to the staff as possible. I place a pusher that just fits over the top pivot in the spindle, mount the staff with wheel between them, carefully move the spindle down until it just clamps the staff and then give the spindle one sharp twist down. This gives me more control then using the staking set, but like with a lot of procedures: it's a personal preference. Also, I work under a microscope and the horia is easy to hold in one hand on it's side to give me a good view when placing the balance.

I found this video on youtube of someone using the same method:

 

Edited November 10, 2024 by caseback

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, caseback said:

I place an anvil that just fits over the staffs shoulder in the bottom part of the tool to support the wheel as close to the staff as possible. I place a pusher that just fits over the top pivot in the spindle, mount the staff with wheel between them, carefully move the spindle down until it just clamps the staff and then give the spindle one sharp twist down. This gives me more control then using the staking set, but like with a lot of procedures: it's a personal preference. Also, I work under a microscope and the horia is easy to hold in one hand on it's side to give me a good view when placing the balance.

I found this video on youtube of someone using the same method:

 

Times Radical,  he's a rather dubious character lol.

[Nucejoe]

 I guess Andy must have mastered restaffing at least ten years ago, and forgotten about all the practice mastering the task took him   . add ten years doing the same,  day in and day out , it would kinda  look as easy as one two three to you.

 Hate to be the one saying this, if you don't know the tools you need to build a complete balance, you wouldn't know how to restaff a balance.

The consensus here is; 

A NEW COMPLETE BALANCE. 

In case you are so keen to go pro and fast, Mark offers watchrepair courses. 

We saw how supersonic VWatchie flew in less than two years.

Rgds

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, caseback said:

I found this video on youtube of someone using the same method:

The video is showing how to do a particular Rolex staff. With some Rolex balance staffs the only way they can be removed is by pushing them out sort of. I was at a lecture once were somebody demonstrated basically push the staff until the rivet breaks with a very satisfying pop sound. This is because the balance staff is designed to break at the rivet. Unfortunately not all balance staffs will break like that which is why other tools are sometimes required. Unfortunately with the balance staffs are doesn't actually seem to be a universal perfect method and other methods may be required to avoid damaging the balance wheel.

[caseback]

As far as I know, a staking set, a platex tool and a horia tool (to name a few) basically do the same thing when used to remove a riveted staff from a wheel: applying force until the rivet breaks.

Balance staffs are made from hardened steel. I imagine that rivetting it will cause some fractures and/or some additional (work) hardening, both causing it to be more prone to breaking. That is what we are counting on when using the above mentioned method.

There is a possibility however that this method causes damage to the wheel if the rivet is too strong. So you wouldn't want do this when working on a piece you do not want to risk damaging. As I understand, using a lathe to cut the rivet is considered best practise.

I personally do not know any other method to cut a rivet other then using a lathe.

Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable folks on this forum could mention some more methods?

[JohnR725]

2 minutes ago, caseback said:

As far as I know, a staking set, a platex tool and a horia tool (to name a few) basically do the same thing when used to remove a riveted staff from a wheel: applying force until the rivet breaks.

Unfortunately and watch repair there are a number of subjects that will result in extremely heated debates over procedural stuff and unfortunately this will be one of them. I am limited deliberately skip over some of the fine details that people like the bicker over and only look at a generalization of the minor problem of what I've quoted above.

In the case of a staking set or the platex tool Which I do not have there is usually a method such as image below a accessory device that is used to hold the balance arms down when the staff is knocked out. This is designed to prevent the balance arms from getting warped.

Then here's an example of pushing the staff out without supporting. Rolex uses this for some other watches because as the image shows the hairspring cannot be removed the staff has to be pushed out. But the balance staff has been designed for this purpose and the balance wheel will withstand the rivet breaking. Unfortunately not all balance wheels can have balance staffs removed in this method for a variety of reasons which have been discussed elsewhere on the message board.

51 minutes ago, caseback said:

here is a possibility however that this method causes damage to the wheel if the rivet is too strong. So you wouldn't want do this when working on a piece you do not want to risk damaging. As I understand, using a lathe to cut the rivet is considered best practise.

When I was in school the instructor before driving a staff out word just weaken the rivet a very tiny bit. In other words you put the balance in the lathe and just took the tiniest a bit of material off the rivet.

Then we end up with lots of variations like Rolex, Elgin and I believe Hamilton all of made balance staffs that are designed to fracture. But not all of their balance staffs were designed that way. So basically when you go to drive a staff out if it does not want to come out with a minimal amount of force then you should use a lathe. Then depends upon your preference either cut the hub or the rivet as driving a staff out that does not want to come out is usually not in your best interest at all.

55 minutes ago, caseback said:

Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable folks on this forum could mention some more methods?

It will depend upon what your balance wheel is made of? In other words as long as your balance wheel is not made out of steel you can use alum to dissolve the staff out.

[caseback]

58 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Unfortunately and watch repair there are a number of subjects that will result in extremely heated debates over procedural stuff and unfortunately this will be one of them.

Well, fortunately, on this friendly forum this is limited to a friendly exchange of views! This is how we learn and keep it enjoyable. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

I passed up the chance to buy a Molfres tool 2 years ago......bigggg mistake ,I've never seen one since.... think it was only up for 120 quid.   The better punching out methods such as a platax tool, unruh-max and K&D staff removal tools rely on keeping the balance wheel tight down so the staff pops out cleaner leaving less damage to a non steel balance  wheel.....still not as good as cutting away the hub or dissolving the staff. 

14 minutes ago, caseback said:

Well, fortunately, on this friendly forum this is limited to a friendly exchange of views! This is how we learn and keep it enjoyable. 

Usually caseback usually , quite funny to see the occasional disagreement raise in temperature....cant help but think to myself ' grow the hell up, we're supposed to be adults '

Much worse carryings on with the facebook groups , some members get so petty over there. Tbf some of it is due to language barriers and non native English speakers not fully grasping how to put their point across, we definitely have to make allowances for some folk.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches
Just been diagnosed with dyslexia....as if i never knew 😄

[praezis]

Funny this discussion - already cleared to the utmost detail - gets started again and again by newer members who don‘t know about it.
Surprising that long time members get tired of repeating discussion and reasons?

I will just repeat this link.

Frank

[FredrikP]

Omg. Did not want to stir up this much discussion! I thought that I start small in the newbie sections to not get to embarrassed . I really appreciate all the support and comments.

Update: I've managed to do the easy part separating the hairspring from the balance without any damage (hopefully ). See attached picture

So the next step for me is to buy a tool for the roller to remove that, then look into on how to actually separate the wheel from the staff. I will watch the recommended videos and read into the forums!

One other thing. I'm planning on "harvesting" the roller jewel from another balance to repair the one missing it's jewel. What is the best way of dissolve shellac from the roller jewel and will the roller jewel just slide off nicely when the shellac is dissolved ?

 

[AndyGSi]

Have you marked the balance to ensure correct positioning of the spring when refitting?

Is it the same balance and/or same size jewel you're harvesting?

Edited November 11, 2024 by AndyGSi

[praezis]

52 minutes ago, FredrikP said:

Omg. Did not want to stir up this much discussion!

Not you especially

[FredrikP]

21 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Have you marked the balance to ensure correct positioning of the spring when refitting?

Is it the same balance and/or same size jewel you're harvesting?

Yes. It is marked.

Im replacing it with a jewel from another balance from same movement model

[AndyGSi]

31 minutes ago, FredrikP said:

Yes. It is marked.

Im replacing it with a jewel from another balance from same movement model

So if it's the same movement then why aren't you just using that balance or at least the complete roller?