Nestromo compact watch cleaning machine

[praezis]

There may be a misunderstanding about need of a heater. It is necessary with IPA rinse, too. 

Evaporating water or IPA needs energy. This comes from the part, the part gets colder than ambient and air moisture will condense on the part to water. If the part is steel, it gets prone to rust. A heater will avoid this.

Frank

[nickelsilver]

I seem to remember our member JohnR made a simple set up with like soup cans and a hair dryer (not that but that simple) for drying parts in his workshop at home. It doesn't take much, just like Frank says keep the parts above ambient temp, more heat just works faster.

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, Nestromo said:

Hi this is Torsten, I am the guy from germany who did this. I saw the traffic from this site and thought I should pay a visit. First thank you Knebo for your initial post. I find it very balanced, you understood the spirit. Let me elaborate a little.

The criticism about the basket is not necessarily correct but understandable. It is doing well in watch cleaning solutions, no complains so far and the oldest machine is now 11 month in action. But the machine deserves a stainless steel basket, I think. If you hold the machine in your hand, the heaviness it really lives up to the quality of an Elma basket. I actually contacted them and asked for permission, an apprentice wrote me back I could buy if I want. Not sure what to make out of it.

What else, yes, the spinning. Not elegant, it is true. I could extend the rod and use taller jars but it makes the imbalance much more visible and also increases the force on the bearings of the motor. 

Some customers ask for a rectangular stand with six slots, so they spin off the extract fluid in an extra jar and water and IPA in another. They took it without the ends and chrome foots for 50 bugs, just the 2x 3-jar-rack fixed together.

Yes, the heater gives room for DIY-Solution. I recommend to use IPA in the end, water will be displaced and IPA evaporates. I recommend that because I don't need to develop an heater then:). Of course people have their own minds.

About flaws: The motor, the electronics and the overall design, I developed 2 years full-time to make it work as expected and ever since I improve manufacturing and testing to assure my own quality standards, that could not be higher. If anything is odd, I will ask the machine back and pay for the transport. This happened about 5 times now, one even from Oklahoma. One Flaw really is my delivery time, no matter what I say I need a week longer, this is terrible, but thanks goodness private customers have more patience than commercial ones. 

By the way, since today, the direction change interval is now fixed to 30 seconds (former 3 minutes) and disabled when spinning. Multiple customers asked for that.

Thanks again to everyone in this thread, all the comments show very substantial knowledge! Let me express my gratitude with a picture of the alu-case after the moulding.

Cheers,

Torsten

Well done Torsten, you've made a wonderful job of the compact design of it and much respect from me for  acknowledging it's flaws. The biggest one of not being able to spin off the fluid in the same jar that has cleaned the parts., i see it as minor criticism....but a small amount of cleaner and rinse is wasted.....unless it is collected separately over time and added back to it's respective pot once month say ?  I feel a heater is more important than you suggest......get onto that

[caseback]

6 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I seem to remember our member JohnR made a simple set up with like soup cans and a hair dryer (not that but that simple) for drying parts in his workshop at home. It doesn't take much, just like Frank says keep the parts above ambient temp, more heat just works faster.

I guess a ptc heating element with a small computer fan would work just fine.

Edited November 12, 2024 by caseback

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, caseback said:

I guess a ptc heating element with a small computer fan would work just fine.

Make that happen and you'll have a better product Torsten, just a warming box with airflow that the motor lid can attach to. 

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Make that happen and you'll have a better product Torsten, just a warming box with airflow that the motor lid can attach to. 

Someone here made a version of yours before i did a couple of years ago......using just a jam jar and a simple dc motor.....it didn't work out for..... some reason the cleaning fluid didn't interact well enough with the basket. It was only one way, which is part of the problem....the fluid speed caught up with the basket and there was no added plan for making agitation.....cant remember who made it ?  Reverse direction should be before the fluid catches up, else an impeller above to flush fluids through the basket,  wave breakers can also help.

[RichardHarris123]

Isn't the dew point temperature the important factor here? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Make that happen and you'll have a better product Torsten, just a warming box with airflow that the motor lid can attach to. 

Someone here made a version of yours before i did a couple of years ago......using just a jam jar and a simple dc motor.....it didn't work out for..... some reason the cleaning fluid didn't interact well enough with the basket. It was only one way, which is part of the problem....the fluid speed caught up with the basket and there was no added plan for making agitation.....cant remember who made it ?  Reverse direction should be before the fluid catches up, else an impeller above to flush fluids through the basket,  wave breakers can also help.

Square jars break up fluids, the squarer and sharper the corners the better. The fluid  appears to swirl back on itself .

Yours seem a little too rounded

29 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Isn't the dew point temperature the important factor here? 

And humidity, i used to encounter condensation problems a lot with my job when started, we had different home environments back then .

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, Nestromo said:

Hi this is Torsten, I am the guy from germany who did this. I saw the traffic from this site and thought I should pay a visit. First thank you Knebo for your initial post. I find it very balanced, you understood the spirit. Let me elaborate a little.

The criticism about the basket is not necessarily correct but understandable. It is doing well in watch cleaning solutions, no complains so far and the oldest machine is now 11 month in action. But the machine deserves a stainless steel basket, I think. If you hold the machine in your hand, the heaviness it really lives up to the quality of an Elma basket. I actually contacted them and asked for permission, an apprentice wrote me back I could buy if I want. Not sure what to make out of it.

What else, yes, the spinning. Not elegant, it is true. I could extend the rod and use taller jars but it makes the imbalance much more visible and also increases the force on the bearings of the motor. 

Some customers ask for a rectangular stand with six slots, so they spin off the extract fluid in an extra jar and water and IPA in another. They took it without the ends and chrome foots for 50 bugs, just the 2x 3-jar-rack fixed together.

Yes, the heater gives room for DIY-Solution. I recommend to use IPA in the end, water will be displaced and IPA evaporates. I recommend that because I don't need to develop an heater then:). Of course people have their own minds.

About flaws: The motor, the electronics and the overall design, I developed 2 years full-time to make it work as expected and ever since I improve manufacturing and testing to assure my own quality standards, that could not be higher. If anything is odd, I will ask the machine back and pay for the transport. This happened about 5 times now, one even from Oklahoma. One Flaw really is my delivery time, no matter what I say I need a week longer, this is terrible, but thanks goodness private customers have more patience than commercial ones. 

By the way, since today, the direction change interval is now fixed to 30 seconds (former 3 minutes) and disabled when spinning. Multiple customers asked for that.

Thanks again to everyone in this thread, all the comments show very substantial knowledge! Let me express my gratitude with a picture of the alu-case after the moulding.

Cheers,

Torsten

Hi Torsten! 

I actually thought about sharing my post/topic/thread with you. I would have informed you sooner or later, for sure. But I thought it would be useful to have an open discussion at first without you -- you've now come in at a good time to give your response. I hope it was ok like this. 

I'm sure this community has useful feedback. 

Thanks and best, 

C

[Nestromo]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Make that happen and you'll have a better product Torsten, just a warming box with airflow that the motor lid can attach to. 

Someone here made a version of yours before i did a couple of years ago......using just a jam jar and a simple dc motor.....it didn't work out for..... some reason the cleaning fluid didn't interact well enough with the basket. It was only one way, which is part of the problem....the fluid speed caught up with the basket and there was no added plan for making agitation.....cant remember who made it ?  Reverse direction should be before the fluid catches up, else an impeller above to flush fluids through the basket,  wave breakers can also help.

Yes, I know, I looked for PTC elements, I wasn't really convinced 

 

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Make that happen and you'll have a better product Torsten, just a warming box with airflow that the motor lid can attach to. 

Someone here made a version of yours before i did a couple of years ago......using just a jam jar and a simple dc motor.....it didn't work out for..... some reason the cleaning fluid didn't interact well enough with the basket. It was only one way, which is part of the problem....the fluid speed caught up with the basket and there was no added plan for making agitation.....cant remember who made it ?  Reverse direction should be before the fluid catches up, else an impeller above to flush fluids through the basket,  wave breakers can also help.

I know, I have several approaches but what holds me back is the amount of current and therefore safety issues. I should do some tests...

[Nestromo]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Square jars break up fluids, the squarer and sharper the corners the better. The fluid  appears to swirl back on itself .

Yours seem a little too rounded

And humidity, i used to encounter condensation problems a lot with my job when started, we had different home environments back then .

That is correct they are round for a squared jar, extra wavebreakers make sense and I have a customer who might design something. I like to keep it simple for now. The square jar is available everywhere and I can tell by the current consumption of the motor it brings much more resistance than a complete round jar. 

[Nestromo]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Make that happen and you'll have a better product Torsten, just a warming box with airflow that the motor lid can attach to. 

Someone here made a version of yours before i did a couple of years ago......using just a jam jar and a simple dc motor.....it didn't work out for..... some reason the cleaning fluid didn't interact well enough with the basket. It was only one way, which is part of the problem....the fluid speed caught up with the basket and there was no added plan for making agitation.....cant remember who made it ?  Reverse direction should be before the fluid catches up, else an impeller above to flush fluids through the basket,  wave breakers can also help.

Interesting, I think I have seen a youtube video from 2022. It looked very experimental but similar to my first approaches...

2 hours ago, Knebo said:

Hi Torsten! 

I actually thought about sharing my post/topic/thread with you. I would have informed you sooner or later, for sure. But I thought it would be useful to have an open discussion at first without you -- you've now come in at a good time to give your response. I hope it was ok like this. 

I'm sure this community has useful feedback. 

Thanks and best, 

C

Yes, it is great! Really got me thinking about a heater. I will try an PC Fan but make my own PTC-Element with copper wire in series with a PTC-Fuse. I just have to find a PC-Fan made in europe. Does not exist probably...

Anyway, this is the first thread that wasn't started by me and it came out really really good. Thank you very much!

Best wishes,

Torsten 

4 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Hello @Nestromo, I  think you have every right to defend your product but care needs to be taken not to advertise or mention sales.  Neither are allowed on the forum. 

Hi Richard, thanks for the notice. I keep my head low.

I have added a short video at the same place as before. I should have cleaned the spinning jar before shooting.

[Geotex]

30 secs for the reversing auto timer is better than the initially reported 3 minutes, which was not really useful since that’s about what a cycle should be. But getting closer to 10 secs would better reflect what traditional units provide for most effective cleaning.

[caseback]

7 hours ago, Nestromo said:

 I will try an PC Fan but make my own PTC-Element with copper wire in series with a PTC-Fuse.

I used a ptc element like this to replace the original element of my Elma machine when that failed. Works perfectly!

Seems to me to be easier and possibly (probably??) better then making one yourself with copper wire?

For that application, obviously I didn't need the computer fan.

Edited November 13, 2024 by caseback

[tomh207]

@Nestromo Torsten, your closest for fans are likely Noctua, designed in Austria. They are considered to be one of the top tier fans, very quiet and reliable but not cheap. They can be from 200mm down to 40mm. Might be worth a look.

 

https://noctua.at/en/
 

Tom

[JohnR725]

On 11/11/2024 at 8:12 AM, Knebo said:

seems very expensive for what it is (but the engineer insists that most parts are Made in Germany and that about 10h of handwork goes into finishing the product). But well, still much cheaper than the Elma.

That was not what I was expecting I've seen another one on the eBay not as compact as this. Then yes the price seems disturbing except usually on DIY people forget about what the time is worth in their quest to do whatever it is they're trying to do and if you're making a limited quantity of things then the price will be high.

On 11/11/2024 at 8:12 AM, Knebo said:

spinning off liquid isn't as "elegant" as on the Elma (instead of a "plunger" within the same jar, one has to move to a dedicated spinning jar).

The manual moving of a watch basket from container to container is not a new thing. Various cleaning machines the past employed a process of moving from container to container typically without spinning between baths like for instance here's a brand-new machine with ultrasonic.

https://www.lititzpp.com/matador.html

 

On 11/11/2024 at 11:53 PM, Knebo said:

You make it sound very easy. But to me, it's not. I have no idea about a dc motor programmer (or how to use it) nor designing in slme (never heard that word/acronym) and I don't have a 3D printer. And I'm working full time (and wife, too) with a 4-year-old son. So not much time to figure it out (any time I have, I'd rather spend on a watch).

Yes a common amusement on this group is everything is easy. The other day someone had concerns about rewiring a cleaning machine was pointed out it's easy. So yes everything on this group is easy rewiring a cleaning machine with no prior experience no tools no wire no supplies how badly could that go wrong?

Oh and then nowadays you need a 3-D printer or for that matter a lot of tools as their places you can send you design files and they will manufacture for you. Of course you do need to have design files how hard would it be to make those?

 

On 11/12/2024 at 1:21 AM, VWatchie said:

Perhaps this is the reason ETA in their technical documentation is so keen on using oil (HP-1300) instead of grease. Sorry for being OT.

 

From what I can tell the Swiss like oil especially on the keyless they're just going to a heavier and heavier oil. But if you look at some of the newest tech sheets you will find 9504 usually recommended on some of the highest pressure components on the keyless.

On 11/12/2024 at 2:35 AM, Knebo said:

spinning off the excess liquid when changing between jars

Not as nice as spinning was something that I did. Instead a separate jars I had one beaker and used ultrasonic with that. So when I remove the baskets the parts strung on a wire I would Place it on a paper towel Which would absorb a lot of fluids. This would allow me the opportunity to pour the fluids back into the jars that I Them in and then fill up the beaker with the next solution.

 

[Knebo]

I think this is a valuable discussion and it's great how @Nestromo is engaging positively and constructively. Kudos to him. 

It's a lovely product with a nice form factor; ready to use for those who aren't into building their own DIY machine. Great to save space. The time you spend on development and manufacturing has to be priced in. This is a commercial product, so fair play. 

I'd add my voice to saying that the change of spinning direction should be as frequent as possible. As someone said, thr pro machines switch every 2-4 seconds. 

The other thing is the heating for drying. If that was added, it would be a huge additional selling point for me. I don't think is has to be a fan. Elma machines don't have that either. Something as simple as a sillicone heating pad and a tube with vents, like this (from China, sorry): https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005005315249580.html

 

One question @Nestromo: are the jars you use good for storing the solvents (benzine/lighter fluid, ammoniated fluids) in the mid-term? Do the rubber seals last? How's the level of evaporation? 

 

[JohnR725]

56 minutes ago, Knebo said:

'd add my voice to saying that the change of spinning direction should be as frequent as possible. As someone said, thr pro machines switch every 2-4 seconds.

Was watching a video I didn't watch to the very end and I did wonder about switching directions? I saw a YouTube video or someone had set their machine to the fastest back and forth and that was a little too fast. I tend to think of you want to spin in a direction especially when you don't have wave breakers to break up they flow you get spinning you stop the fluid will spin past and then you go the other direction so you definitely want to go back and forth I'm not sure that two seconds is seems a little fast but experimentation or variable might be nice

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

The other thing is the heating for drying.

The problem with the dryer is they already exist and according to Ally express some of them are very cheap. But you wouldn't want to drive the entire units as you wouldn't want to get the electronics hot so maybe a holder or a way of I didn't pay 100% attention of how the baskets are held for instance it be nice to hold the baskets altogether when placing it on top of the dryer like this otherwise I'll have to have all the baskets separate if they would fit on top of the Dryer.

 

 

[Razz]

Don't the vintage machines just have a cylinder with a light bulb at the bottom and drop the basket in and spin dry? The moving baskets create the moving air across the parts? Granted you can't get the incandescent light bulbs that get warm any more.

[caseback]

34 minutes ago, Razz said:

Don't the vintage machines just have a cylinder with a light bulb at the bottom and drop the basket in and spin dry? The moving baskets create the moving air across the parts? Granted you can't get the incandescent light bulbs that get warm any more.

Perhaps some did, but not L&R, Elma, Brenray.

[Razz]

8 hours ago, caseback said:

Perhaps some did, but not L&R, Elma, Brenray.

Those had a heating element of some sort then?

[markr]

What about a tube that fits over the jar that would lift the basket out of the fluid for spinning?

[caseback]

57 minutes ago, Razz said:

Those had a heating element of some sort then?

Yep!