low amplitude

[Takeitapart]

I am a novice so please be patient.  I just completed a rebuild of a Seiko 6309a movement.  Cleaned, lubricated and installed a barrel arbor jewel set.  This is my initial trace.  I can see that the amplitude is quite low.  Is this OK?  if not where do I look to increase or do I start over?  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[caseback]

4 hours ago, Takeitapart said:

I am a novice so please be patient.  I just completed a rebuild of a Seiko 6309a movement.  Cleaned, lubricated and installed a barrel arbor jewel set.  This is my initial trace.  I can see that the amplitude is quite low.  Is this OK?  if not where do I look to increase or do I start over?  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Based on the limited information you provide I can only say that the amplitude is too low. As to the why: there's friction somewhere, but where? Not enough info and too many options I'm afraid.

[Klassiker]

It's impossible to answer without more information, so I have some questions for you.

Did you fully wind the watch to do this measurement?

Which position is the watch in?

Did you measure the other positions?

Did you do timegrapher readings before working on the watch?

What were the results?

You installed a barrel arbor jewel set. Not a simple job for a novice. Well done! Was it the correct Seiko part for this movement, from a reliable source?

Were the jewels installed correctly, clean and undamaged?

How much endshake does the barrel arbor have now?

[Takeitapart]

 

Thank you for the follow up.  I will try to answer the questions.

- Yes I believe the watch was fully wound and is face up.  Did not try in other positions.

-This watch was not running and has parts from other "donor" movements.

-The jewel set was from VTA online via ebay.  Installed per you tube video without difficulty.  I assume they were installed correctly.

-Not sure how to measure endshake.

 

mb

[Takeitapart]

Update:  I disassembled the barrel train bridge and found some debris and cleaned it.  I rechecked the jewels that I had installed. No signs of damage and I confirmed the fit.  After reassembly I have an amplitude in the low 180's for every position.  The watch has been running about 36 hours on the last wind.   Not sure what to make of all of this???

 

mark  

[PaulRepairShop]

At rebuild, after the initial half wind, did the pallet fork impulses react accordingly (with the balance still dismantled)? This is also to determine that at (very) low mainspring power the pallet fork already supplies the impulses. If not there is too much friction in the train wheel and/or the mainspring is weak.

[Takeitapart]

I am sorry I am not sure I understand.

 

mb

[AndyGSi]

Are you still using the old mainspring?

Does the gear train run freely with the balance removed?

[Nucejoe]

21 hours ago, Takeitapart said:

-Not sure how to measure endshake.

End shake is the amount of  axial free end play of an arbour. Freedom to be moved up & down.

As a test, loosen all screws on barrel bridge two full turns,  you will be creating  some end shake, see if you immediately gain amplitude.

Make sure the barrel lid if fitted flush level with barrel wall, also that the click isn't rubbing on the lid.

Loosen screws to gear train bridge and observe the result, do the same on fork bridge and balance cock .

Rgds 

[JohnR725]

22 hours ago, Takeitapart said:

This watch was not running and has parts from other "donor" movements

which parts were changed and why?

On 11/11/2024 at 5:27 PM, Takeitapart said:

I am a novice so please be patient.  I just completed a rebuild of a Seiko 6309a movement.  Cleaned, lubricated

how did you lubricate the watch in particular the escapement?

[Klassiker]

Thanks for answering my questions. I started replying yesterday morning, but ran out of time. Now the situation has moved on quite a bit.

I think you already know this, but the amplitude is far too low. This indicates at least one problem in the train or escapement which you need to diagnose and solve. The possible causes are numerous, but include contamination, incorrect lubrication, or too much or too little freedom of movement. You have had a number of different suggestions about possible causes and how to test, all valid, but things get really complicated really quickly if you don't have a methodical approach.

I would suggest going right back to basics and testing the function of each individual component in the chain, starting with the barrel.

You can make videos and post them on Youtube then link from here if you need a second opinion.

 

[PaulRepairShop]

16 hours ago, Takeitapart said:

I am sorry I am not sure I understand.

 

mb

With the balance still removed, you can observe the impuls stength, by flipping the and of the pallet fork and see the entry and exit motion of the fork pallets on the escape wheel (at a half turn of teh mainspring). If the fork after a small tick of a tweezer turns automatically to the other side, it is an idication that it works ok. If not, there could be too much friction in the wheel train.

[Jon]

16 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Are you still using the old mainspring?

I think this is probably the most important point that @AndyGSihas asked to clear up first before trying to diagnose low amplitude, when we don't know if a 30/40 year old mainspring was used or not; so I'm wondering was a new mainspring used and if you did what size was it and what grease did you use on the barrel wall as braking grease?

I think starting at where the power emanates is a good place to look first in my experience

[GuyMontag]

Does the 6309 have manual winding? I didn't think that it did.

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, GuyMontag said:

Does the 6309 have manual winding? I didn't think that it did.

You've got a point. I never thought to question if he'd got a full charge into the spring.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hey Takeitapart...... ...matey have you got a full charge into the spring ?

[clockboy]

I don’t why but I have found with Seiko watches certainly vintage amplitude always seems low..,However despite this they run well and keep good time.. Maybe they were designed this way..

 

[Takeitapart]

I lubricated according to the service manual. using primarily mobeus 9010.  the arbor an power train run smoothly.  I think at this time I will just start from the beginning.  Disassemble, clean and reassemble.  

 

MB

[clockboy]

Yes good practice indeed. However when you re assemble make sure every part is spotlessly clean and check and test as you go.. 

[Takeitapart]

I have replaced the mainspring and arbor.  Cleaned balance and pivot.  The amplitude now fluctuates between 185 and 205 when sitting in a face up position.  not sure I understand why so much fluctuation in the same position??

 

mb

[Klassiker]

Is it a regular cycle between the two extremes? Show us the timegraph trace, and time the period, if it's regular.