Bushing a plate bearing for barrel arbors

[SwissSeiko]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ha....Just figured out what the notches in my lathe rest are for....possibly.....but what I'm using them for. Sharpening a graver with a diamond wheel in the lathe...the lathe came with a number of accessories, burrs and the like and a small diamond wheel. These bend easily when pushing the graver upto grind...the notch act as a stabiliser....not in the case I show, as the wheel is two sided . But in the case of a one sided wheel it will apply, may not be exactly on the nose but i think its on those lines with my lathe. 

 

Interesting! That's the fun in buying a used watchmakers lathe. Trying to figure out what the last guy was thinking in his tool making adventures. I'm sure when my kid sells my stuff, the next guy will have so many questions.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

Interesting! That's the fun in buying a used watchmakers lathe. Trying to figure out what the last guy was thinking in his tool making adventures. I'm sure when my kid sells my stuff, the next guy will have so many questions.

No reason to make it easy for the next owner . Leave a detailed list....or not 

Finallt found time to make the bush to  Actual size, its only just over half a millimetre in length

[mbwatch]

5 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

Interesting! That's the fun in buying a used watchmakers lathe. Trying to figure out what the last guy was thinking in his tool making adventures. I'm sure when my kid sells my stuff, the next guy will have so many questions.

About an hour ago I was getting ready to click Buy on a jacot tool that had an unusual modification. But as I was trying to write up a question to all of you as to what the mod might have been for and if the tool was still useful, somebody else bought it. Shame too, it was only like £160 and complete.

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

About an hour ago I was getting ready to click Buy on a jacot tool that had an unusual modification. But as I was trying to write up a question to all of you as to what the mod might have been for and if the tool was still useful, somebody else bought it. Shame too, it was only like £160 and complete.

There will be more, don't see is as a ... you missed out ....but as a potential.....lucky escape. If it was meant to be then you would have got it, everything happens for a reason. There'll be more coming your way for sure.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Since this hubbed bush was easy to make....twenty mins maybe a little more from start to finish including the bore. Most of that time was the final sizing up and measurement checks, which were tricky as I'm using pin gauges to check the length measurements ( I need some sort of end micrometer or dial gauge set up) . I've decided to make a trial run in a scrap plate. One thing I'm not sure on which is why I'm trialling it first, and that's the soldering into place. As it stands the body is exactly 1mm and the trial hole is 10 microns under at 0.99, so I have a friction fit.  My plan was to have two pieces of solder under the hub section and then apply heat from under the plate to make them flow. @nevenbekriev @caseback This leaves me with the problem of pressing the bush home at the same time because of the friction fit should I loose the friction fit so I dont need to use a jewel press and press the bush home with a probe by hand ? 

Or do i press the bush home and then solder it in place....I'm not entirely sure how good the capillary action will be in such a tight joint.

I could be making a few of these bushes

[caseback]

37 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

@nevenbekriev @caseback 

Or do i press the bush home and then solder it in place....I'm not entirely sure how good the capillary action will be in such a tight joint.

I could be making a few of these bushes

I found that using feeler gauges (the blade type used for adjusting valve clearances on engines) work fine for eyeballing distances under the microscope. The flat sides make alignment easier compared to round pin gauges.

As to fitting the bush: definately don't loose the press fit. You don't need much to keep it in place. A tiny bit of solder around the shoulder is more than enough. If you're doing test pieces: my first suggestion was using some locktite, you still might try that as well.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, caseback said:

I found that using feeler gauges (the blade type used for adjusting valve clearances on engines) work fine for eyeballing distances under the microscope. The flat sides make alignment easier compared to round pin gauges.

As to fitting the bush: definately don't loose the press fit. You don't need much to keep it in place. A tiny bit of solder around the shoulder is more than enough. If you're doing test pieces: my first suggestion was using some locktite, you still might try that as well.

Thanks case, I will try the locktite as well, that idea takes the heat off ....terrible pun day

A quick google on loctite has given me the decisions of the red or maybe even the green one.

[tomh207]

23 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks case, I will try the locktite as well, that idea takes the heat off ....terrible pun day

A quick google on loctite has given me the decisions of the red or maybe even the green one.

It’s looking good Rich, I think you could do this with any of the medium/high anaerobic setting threadlockers rather than silver solder. As you said there would need to be sufficient free space between the parts for the flux to sit so the solder will flow properly. My other concern would be potentially warping the plates applying heat to them.

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

Could you incorporate another shoulder in the back flange to allow solder or some other adhesive to flow under.

[Michael1962]

Red Loctite will be absolutely sufficient for the forces involved. We used red Loctite on lots of things when I was an apprentice. I don't think I have ever attended something that has failed that showed evidence of a bolt that had been assembled with the use of red Loctite bolt coming undone.

Loctite 243, even though it is more for threaded fixings, would be ample for what you need. Probably the cheapest one as well.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, tomh207 said:

It’s looking good Rich, I think you could do this with any of the medium/high anaerobic setting threadlockers rather than silver solder. As you said there would need to be sufficient free space between the parts for the flux to sit so the solder will flow properly. My other concern would be potentially warping the plates applying heat to them.

 

Tom

Thanks Tom , the red sounds suitable, and the green might be overkill. The heat did bother me, and so bismuth solder paste I would chosen.

6 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Could you incorporate another shoulder in the back flange to allow solder or some other adhesive to flow under.

Thats a possibility Andy, leaving a soldering gap to fill up. On another note, I seem to remember you picked up a green Flume book by mistake, are you still looking for the red ?

5 hours ago, Michael1962 said:

Red Loctite will be absolutely sufficient for the forces involved. We used red Loctite on lots of things when I was an apprentice. I don't think I have ever attended something that has failed that showed evidence of a bolt that had been assembled with the use of red Loctite bolt coming undone.

Loctite 243, even though it is more for threaded fixings, would be ample for what you need. Probably the cheapest one as well.

Thanks Michael,  i think I've made a decision,so loctite it is. Its a trial run besides , so it will be getting tested.

[nevenbekriev]

Well, I suggested soldering where soldering I meant with soldering iron and solder for electronic cirquit boards. Of course, not the rubish led free solder, but real one, led containing. Heating no more than 250 degr.

I am not sure for the Loctite. It is designed for arbor in a bush or nut on a bolt. Here the detail has to bond with the plate by flat surface and the detail may simply fall off to the outside direction if some pressure applied on the barrel arbor from the other side.

I have grown with soldering iron in my hand and have all my professional life spent repairing electronic devices, so this is hard for me to imagine that soldering will be a problem for someone. But yes, some training may help.

As a principle -  if the fit is true tight, then no solder will get in. But here it will be no problem if the solder will not get to the cylindrical part of the bush, it will be enough to flow on the plain part between the plate and the bush. So, if You decide to solder, put the bush in place, add some flux, then touch with the tip of the soldering iron with some solder applied and wait to heat, the solder will float where it is needed as it will be attracted by the gap. Another way is to cut small piece of solder and put it in place (with flux), then heat the plate on spirit lamp flame or with torch just until the solder floats in place. It is important afterwards to clean the flux - if it is acid one, then use some alkaline solution.

[Neverenoughwatches]

19 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Well, I suggested soldering where soldering I meant with soldering iron and solder for electronic cirquit boards. Of course, not the rubish led free solder, but real one, led containing. Heating no more than 250 degr.

I am not sure for the Loctite. It is designed for arbor in a bush or nut on a bolt. Here the detail has to bond with the plate by flat surface and the detail may simply fall off to the outside direction if some pressure applied on the barrel arbor from the other side.

I have grown with soldering iron in my hand and have all my professional life spent repairing electronic devices, so this is hard for me to imagine that soldering will be a problem for someone. But yes, some training may help.

As a principle -  if the fit is true tight, then no solder will get in. But here it will be no problem if the solder will not get to the cylindrical part of the bush, it will be enough to flow on the plain part between the plate and the bush. So, if You decide to solder, put the bush in place, add some flux, then touch with the tip of the soldering iron with some solder applied and wait to heat, the solder will float where it is needed as it will be attracted by the gap. Another way is to cut small piece of solder and put it in place (with flux), then heat the plate on spirit lamp flame or with torch just until the solder floats in place. It is important afterwards to clean the flux - if it is acid one, then use some alkaline solution.

Ahh yes you did say leaded solder Nev

Yep, I think I said in effect this bearing will be subject to the heaviest side load in a manual watch, I was worried about the lack of friction surface between the plate and the main section of the bush initially. 

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I seem to remember you picked up a green Flume book by mistake, are you still looking for the red ?

If I spotted one at the right price I may go for it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

I can solder Nev, mostly learnt from plumbing pipe applications, but i can also silver solder, not an expert by any stretch,  but i can get by and be relatively neat in the finished article. 

16 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

If I spotted one at the right price I may go for it.

Message for you Andy

42 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Well, I suggested soldering where soldering I meant with soldering iron and solder for electronic cirquit boards. Of course, not the rubish led free solder, but real one, led containing. Heating no more than 250 degr.

I am not sure for the Loctite. It is designed for arbor in a bush or nut on a bolt. Here the detail has to bond with the plate by flat surface and the detail may simply fall off to the outside direction if some pressure applied on the barrel arbor from the other side.

I have grown with soldering iron in my hand and have all my professional life spent repairing electronic devices, so this is hard for me to imagine that soldering will be a problem for someone. But yes, some training may help.

As a principle -  if the fit is true tight, then no solder will get in. But here it will be no problem if the solder will not get to the cylindrical part of the bush, it will be enough to flow on the plain part between the plate and the bush. So, if You decide to solder, put the bush in place, add some flux, then touch with the tip of the soldering iron with some solder applied and wait to heat, the solder will float where it is needed as it will be attracted by the gap. Another way is to cut small piece of solder and put it in place (with flux), then heat the plate on spirit lamp flame or with torch just until the solder floats in place. It is important afterwards to clean the flux - if it is acid one, then use some alkaline solution.

This means i can trial it today,and what I was originally planning. The second idea with flame appeals to me, heating from underneath. I would add flux to bush...actually the plate...and then press the bush into position, add a few solder pieces around the hub section then heat from the underside to draw the solder into the joint.

I'd  still like to see how well the Loctite fairs, i think that needs to be an experiment when i get some. 

Edited December 5, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[nevenbekriev]

I would use only one small piece of solder, it will be enough. Then, I would hold the plate dial side up and put the solder and the flux on the plate and touching the edge of the bush, then heat underneath

[Neverenoughwatches]

Ok lets have it, bush ready to press in.

[Neverenoughwatches]

It didn't go well, so good job it was a trial run. The middle section which formed the interference fit with the plate...crumpled when I pressed it in. I was sure i had the diameters right and  I added a leading edge to the pressing side of the plate. So I don't know what happened yet, maybe the bush wasn't quite aligned when I pressed it in, maybe the rod is soft brass. I still did the soldering, because i wanted to see how that would go, and that went just fine with adding flux to the bush before fitting and placing two pieces of solder at the join. Heated from below and the solder sucked straight in. Think I'm going to make a few tougher steel bushes next. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 11/24/2024 at 2:06 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Great to know this Case. I'm in a dilemma to buy these collets for my Boley and Leinen A2 . I've talked the seller into letting me buy just one to see if they fit. Its a lot of money for the set....almost double what i paid for the lathe, there is no drawbar so i need to arrange that. But so so tempted, just cant decide if their usefulness will be worth the outlay or if i can find another option that will do the job as well....i keep looking at the big ER colllets to see if I can make them work.

£350

This guy , posted me one out to try, and it was a perfect fit, the collet locks into the keyway as it should. 15mm collet body with a 13mm thread , i just need a thin walled draw bar making, so as to pull it in. The spindls bore is 16.5mm. I'm in that dilemma now wether to buy, I doubt he will drop his price when he knows they fit and I wont find another set like this. Bugger its nearly double what the lathe cost . 

[caseback]

Well, a watchmakers lathe without collets is not particularly useful. You could consider making them yourself, but making a complete set....

I'd bite the bullit. Just remember you'll be using these for 30+ years, so the cost per year is actually low 

19 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Think I'm going to make a few tougher steel bushes next. 

Why? If the brass bushing was damaged, either the size was wrong or the alignment was off. Getting a tougher material won't be the solution. You'll just end up with something else that gets damaged..

Did you make the press-fit section using the hole it's supposed to fit in as a gauge? Just like when you're making a balance staff. You start by turning a slight taper and you're using the balance wheel as a gauge.

[Neverenoughwatches]

44 minutes ago, caseback said:

Well, a watchmakers lathe without collets is not particularly useful. You could consider making them yourself, but making a complete set....

I'd bite the bullit. Just remember you'll be using these for 30+ years, so the cost per year is actually low 

Why? If the brass bushing was damaged, either the size was wrong or the alignment was off. Getting a tougher material won't be the solution. You'll just end up with something else that gets damaged..

Did you make the press-fit section using the hole it's supposed to fit in as a gauge? Just like when you're making a balance staff. You start by turning a slight taper and you're using the balance wheel as a gauge.

I doubt if I could make the collets, just the hardening alone would be a task, but i get what your saying, its just a tenner a year . Yes Case I definitely got something wrong, thought I had the sizes right, i also used the hole in the plate but gauging 10 microns extra on a bush for a friction fit isn't easy...not for me anyhow just yet. Could be that the reamer is worn and is cutting under 0.99, I more or less assumed the hole to be correct at 1mm. I only used the 1mm pin gauge as my 0.99 was missing from the set . Pressing in the bush is also tricky the wide hub obscures the vision to see the fit happening . Pleased that I did the trial first, there might be few more attempts to go

Smooth broaching out the hole would be an answer to it.

[tomh207]

@Neverenoughwatches iirc you got the lathe itself pretty cheap Rich, adding a good selection of collets will put the total value way over the purchase price for both.

 

Tom

[caseback]

Just think of it like it's something as a deposit return scheme . You'll get it back if you ever decide to sell it..