My L&R 111 & #3 Watch Rinse Cleaning Solution Recipe

[SwissSeiko]

Ok I wanted to publish my findings as I ended up making a "commercial" solution yesterday and used it to clean a movement. I measured using a scale to dial in the percentages accurately. My recipes are as follows:

 

SwissSeiko's 111 Ammoniated Cleaning Solution

65% Mineral Spirits(Klean Strip) - Pretty standard

20% Light Naphtha(Klean Strip) - I think this is what we all have access to, but it has the same carbon atoms as the L&R 111. Dark Naphtha has more carbon, and has a much higher boiling point, which decreases its volatility at the temps and times we are using.

5% Store bought concentrated Ammonia(Ace Hardware). This is slightly less potent that pure ammonia, but it is essentially ammonium hydroxide(with slightly less ammonia per weight), which L&R calls for. 

5% Kirkland Dish Soap - This one is interesting as its taking the place of Oleic Acids in L&R's formula. It has the amino acids were looking for, but with additional degreasers, and a scent that helps cover the ammonia smell.

5% IPA 99% - This takes the place of the amino alcohol in their solution, of which has propylene oxide, which i'm not sure citizens have access to, Its very toxic. It is used as a solubilizer. 

 

SwissSeiko's #3 Watch Rinse

80% Mineral Spirits(Klean Strip)

20% Light Naphtha(Klean Strip)

This one is very simple and works very well

 

And there you have it. A commercial quality cleaning solution that can all be purchased at your local hardware store, for relatively cheap. I think if you had to buy it all at once, it would be around $65, but you could make nearly 2 gallons of it. I did a lot of research on chemical properties to try and match the medical grade chemicals they are using, but with easy availability. Obviously you need to be careful when handling chemicals, and you need to have a vast understanding of chemical reactions before you jump into making your own solution. I pulled the MSDS of all of these chemicals to make sure I understood their makeup, and to eliminate any dangerous reactions.

 

The results are very good. It has exceeded my expectations as a home brew concoction. Parts come out brighter than when I was using Liquinox, and that's due to the ammonia. I'm not quite ready to give up my Liquinox, but its handy to have an additional non-water based cleaning solution that works well, particularly for vintage movements, which I mostly service.

 

Don't sue my L&R, this info is all public on your website.

[HectorLooi]

I'm curious. Is the ammonia solution miscible with the mineral spirits and naptha? Do you end up with a milky emulsion or a clear liquid like #111? Or worse, a two phase mixture?

[SwissSeiko]

56 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

I'm curious. Is the ammonia solution miscible with the mineral spirits and naptha? Do you end up with a milky emulsion or a clear liquid like #111? Or worse, a two phase mixture?

Its a semi cloudy, the only think that doesnt stay emulsified is the dish soap. Checking my liquid now, the soap is at the bottom. I may need to try a new oelic acid, but they are all oil based so im not sure why its not emulsified. When actually cleaning though, it is emulsified.

[Waggy]

Great thread, looking to make a UK version of the above, the hard bit seems to be getting the correct naphtha and white spirit:

From the L&R MSDS sheets the following are the ingredients for 111:

• Mineral spirits = CAS 8052-41-3
• Naphtha light = CAS 647-89-8

Klean Strip MSDS sheets (Not available in UK ?):

• Klean-Strip Mineral Spirits = CAS 64742-47-8
• Klean-Strip VM&P Naphtha = CAS 64742-49-0 (classified as light naphtha)

Note: A better match for the L&R 111 mineral spirits is Klean-Strip paint thinner = CAS 8052-41-3 (the same CAS # as L&R mineral spirits) They are both known as Stoddard Solvent

 

Now for the UK versions....

The closest I can get to Naphtha light is:

• U-Pol S2001/5 Fast Panel Wipe & Degreaser (Link) which is the same as Klean-Strip VM&P Naphtha (both CAS 64742-49-0)

 

A little more detective work for the L&R Mineral spirits = CAS 8052-41-3, which according to Wikipedia is Stoddard solvent, and Stoddard solvent is a North American term corresponding to white spirit type 1. So white spirit type 1 is hydrodesulphurized heavy naphtha (petroleum) -> CAS 64742-82-1.

• If we believe Wikipedia then we can find CAS 64742-82-1 as most common white spirits in the UK eg Bartoline White Spirit (Link) which is EC 919-446-0 = CAS 64742-82-1
• I also found 25% ammonia (Link)

 

Drawing a blank on Oleic Acid... anyone out there have any ideas?

 

 

[tomh207]

Scott, a quick google for “oleic acid uk” returns lots of it. It appears to be used in the food, pharmaceutical and beauty industries. 
 

Tom

[HectorLooi]

Ammonia solution is aqueous while all the other components are oils. It will never mix.

[AndyGSi]

18 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Ammonia solution is aqueous while all the other components are oils. It will never mix.

Would the Dish Soap not act as a surfactant?

[rjenkinsgb]

3 hours ago, Waggy said:

Drawing a blank on Oleic Acid... anyone out there have any ideas?

Good quality olive oil! That's roughly 70 - 80% Oleic acid (= the beneficial omega-9 mono-unsaturated fat in it).

 

[nickelsilver]

5% Ammonia is 5% ammonia in water; to get 5% ammonia in your solution you have to start with a higher concentration, and water content will remain an issue. I make a water based solution (Finnish watchmaking school recipe) for clocks, that calls for 25% ammonia solution, which is mixed in with the rest, including oleic acid, until the solution (warmed up) just turns clear. Talking to my chemist friends confirms my guess that the ammonia and oleic acid combine to form a soap, not unlike mixing caustic soda and a fat to make soap (ammonium hydroxide has a ph of 12, caustic soda is 14, and oleic acid is a fatty acid).

The Finnish recipe is:

1L 99% isopropyl alcohol

3L distilled water

50g oxalic acid

60g oleic acid

and the ammonia works out to about 80g of the 25% solution. So I guess that means 20g of ammonia, which means about 0.5% in the ~4L of solution. Even with it "combined" with the oleic acid, there's a distinct but not too strong ammonia smell.

 

The commercial solution I use is from Greiner, and seems to be almost identical to L&R 111 functionally (it's quite popular over here), and it has a much stronger smell than the above Finnish mix. Looking at the data sheet, they have ammonium hydroxide at 1-2.5%.

 

As both L&R and Greiner state ammonia hydroxide, which is by definition a water/ammonia mix, the question is what concentration they are using. 25% seems to be the general result looking for "lab grade". How they get it to mix with the petroleum products is probably a trade secret.

Edited November 17, 2024 by nickelsilver

[HectorLooi]

55 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Would the Dish Soap not act as a surfactant?

At best it will act as an emulsifier, giving a milky suspension like mayonnaise. #111 does not contain ammonia as one of it components. I guess it remains a trade secret of L&R as to how the formula is ammoniated.

[rjenkinsgb]

This looks like a possibility for the required ammonia - 25% lab grade - 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/★analytical-grade★superb-quality★household★industrial-use★Make-Minerals-water-ltd/dp/B01A62D4YU/ref=sr_1_5?crid=35WSPC40DJNM2&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.kPEl6JfOpBVGAw4knlnMoYfRVk0BV8yAE6f-XCtoYbd8TGWD265VH_CcNHn7iBjY_ekQktcqDCt1kGeTGUXTWT0D3R7lrhOcsLLhUD4Hks8.MK4iS0_VUFxyDF-nHopAi0YWFSPxCGh0ggLGyN9sgHA&dib_tag=se&keywords=laboratory+grade+strong+ammonia&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1731856921&sprefix=laboratory+grade+strong+ammonia%2Caps%2C61&sr=8-5

[tomh207]

21 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

At best it will act as an emulsifier, giving a milky suspension like mayonnaise. #111 does not contain ammonia as one of it components. I guess it remains a trade secret of L&R as to how the formula is ammoniated.

Would sodium citrate possibly work as an emulsifier? I do use it for making cheese sauces and fancy cheese slices

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

30 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Would sodium citrate possibly work as an emulsifier? I do use it for making cheese sauces and fancy cheese slices

 

Tom

I think that only works with cheese.

[tomh207]

2 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

I think that only works with cheese.

It should pretty much emulsify any fat based product, so just chucking it out as an option as all oils are a “fat” of one type or another

Tom

[mbwatch]

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

Would sodium citrate possibly work as an emulsifier? I do use it for making cheese sauces and fancy cheese slices

We've got a big bag of the stuff and a scratch made mac & cheese is sounding excellent for lunch...

 

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

5% Ammonia is 5% ammonia in water; to get 5% ammonia in your solution you have to start with a higher concentration

I understood this to mean that the ammonia is to make up 5% of SwissSeiko's total volume, not that the ammonia purchased was a 5% concentration to begin with. I think the concentrated ammonia we can get in US hardware stores is 25%-30% so still plenty of water, but 5% of the total mixture consists of ~25% ammonia, so what, about 1%-2% of ammonia in the final mixture by volume? I think?

[SwissSeiko]

7 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Would the Dish Soap not act as a surfactant?

I have actual surfactant that I use for my lawn chemicals. I can give that a try if you think it'll work

[AndyGSi]

20 minutes ago, SwissSeiko said:

I have actual surfactant that I use for my lawn chemicals. I can give that a try if you think it'll work

It depends what type it is as some surfactants create a lot of foam to bond the 2 liquids.

[SwissSeiko]

26 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

It depends what type it is as some surfactants create a lot of foam to bond the 2 liquids.

I'll have a look later on. It's golf course grade so I would imagine it doesn't make foam

[nickelsilver]

While I appreciate the effort, is it really worth saving 50% minus the work, to have and use a cleaning solution that might be as good as the commercial stuff?

[Waggy]

54 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

While I appreciate the effort, is it really worth saving 50% minus the work, to have and use a cleaning solution that might be as good as the commercial stuff?

Of course what you are saying makes complete sense, but I see this as more of a challenge, a mountain that must be climbed 

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Would sodium citrate possibly work as an emulsifier? I do use it for making cheese sauces and fancy cheese slices

 

Tom

Hmm cheese and biscuits at yours this afternoon Tom . 

14 hours ago, mbwatch said:

We've got a big bag of the stuff and a scratch made mac & cheese is sounding excellent for lunch...

 

I understood this to mean that the ammonia is to make up 5% of SwissSeiko's total volume, not that the ammonia purchased was a 5% concentration to begin with. I think the concentrated ammonia we can get in US hardware stores is 25%-30% so still plenty of water, but 5% of the total mixture consists of ~25% ammonia, so what, about 1%-2% of ammonia in the final mixture by volume? I think?

How about distilling the ammonia aqueous solution ?

4 hours ago, Waggy said:

Of course what you are saying makes complete sense, but I see this as more of a challenge, a mountain that must be climbed 

Haha some of us have that nature to knock our balls out to achieve something that makes little sense...just for us to have the satisfaction of saying....." I did that " 

So the ammonia.....does it actually remove dried up oil, dirt,grime etc any more than a non ammoniated cleaning solution or is it just a brightener or is this just a really stupid question and " of course it does "

[rjenkinsgb]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So the ammonia.....does it actually remove dried up oil, dirt,grime etc any more than a non ammoniated cleaning solution or is it just a brightener

It's a powerful degreaser, it converts oil & grease to a water miscible "soap" type substance.

I'm guessing the commercial L&R stuff it made by adding gaseous ammonia directly to the solvent mix under pressure to saturate it, so no water is added??

 

[mbwatch]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha some of us have that nature to knock our balls out to achieve something that makes little sense

Restoring mechanical watches in general.

[HectorLooi]

If we take that white stuff and dessicate it, then dissolve it in the mineral spirits/naphtha... it may just work.

[SwissSeiko]

3 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

It's a powerful degreaser, it converts oil & grease to a water miscible "soap" type substance.

I'm guessing the commercial L&R stuff it made by adding gaseous ammonia directly to the solvent mix under pressure to saturate it, so no water is added??

 

The only issue I have with this, is that it states it contains ammonium hydroxide, which by definition is ammonia and water. I'm still trying to figure out a way to emulsify the mixture. Canola oil has a very high amount of Oelic acid, so I may try that.

 

13 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

While I appreciate the effort, is it really worth saving 50% minus the work, to have and use a cleaning solution that might be as good as the commercial stuff?

That is totally logical. My though process was, I have all of this stuff on hand, so why not try to make it myself! 

22 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I understood this to mean that the ammonia is to make up 5% of SwissSeiko's total volume, not that the ammonia purchased was a 5% concentration to begin with. I think the concentrated ammonia we can get in US hardware stores is 25%-30% so still plenty of water, but 5% of the total mixture consists of ~25% ammonia, so what, about 1%-2% of ammonia in the final mixture by volume? I think?

That's correct, my ammonia solution is 5% of total volume. I ran a previously cleaned movement through the solution, and the solution was nearly black when in came out. However, it did remove a small amount of gold paint on the barrel bridge, but I'm not 100% sure if that was already worn off before cleaning, so just a note I'll need to monitor.