Pocket watch 25mm looses time

[PaulRepairShop]

After services a small pocket watch 25mm (a.o. installing new complete balance) it runs well (autostart) but looses time (rate -120s/d) and regulation does not change this at all. Demagnitized all components and the hairspring sits well in between the timing pins (can breath and width is 3 times the thickness of the hairspring). Any suggestions how to proceed?

[AndyGSi]

Need more info to help.

What's the movement?

Are you sure it's the correct balance?

What else did you replace?

What's the amplitude?

[PaulRepairShop]

8 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Need more info to help.

What's the movement?

Are you sure it's the correct balance?

What else did you replace?

What's the amplitude?

Small 25mm cylinder movement without any identification info on the mainplate or bridges. Balance is original to the movement. The strange thing is that altering the length of the hairspring by changing the position of the timing pins does hardly improve the rate (from full retard to full advance), it still looses time about 120s/d.

[AndyGSi]

You said in your first post that you'd installed a new balance but now you're saying the balance is original?

What about the other questions?

Do you know about Bestfit and other literature for finding details on movements without any identification?

It's always best with any post to add pictures showing what you're working with.

[PaulRepairShop]

I meant the new balance has the same specifications and dimensions in comparison with the old one from whom the pivots were broken. The only number on the mainplate 372, no other numbers or characters visible.

Nothing else replaced except the balance.

 

[PaulRepairShop]

Timegrapher only shows the rate, amplitude and beat error are not shown (remain at 0.0).

[AndyGSi]

5 minutes ago, PaulRepairShop said:

Timegrapher only shows the rate, amplitude and beat error are not shown (remain at 0.0).

If you're not getting an amplitude then I suggest you have a look at your timegrapher as it should be showing something unless the amplitude is so low it can register it.

[watchweasol]

Hi first check your timegrapher with a working watch to be sure it’s accurate.   Swapping balances between movements especially old movements such as cylinders as they are vibrated to match the movements as with all movements, the weight of the balance may differ, did you poise the balance before fitting it.  I take it it was a non runner before you started.

[tomh207]

Is it possible that the timegrapher can’t lock on properly because it’s a cylinder escapement? It’s got to sound a lot different than a Swiss lever escapement.

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

13 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Is it possible that the timegrapher can’t lock on properly because it’s a cylinder escapement? It’s got to sound a lot different than a Swiss lever escapement.

 

Tom

I suppose that depends on the timegrapher but having a closer look at the movement the balance jewel looks shot anyway.

[tomh207]

My eyes ain’t that good at my age Andy

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

Just now, tomh207 said:

My eyes ain’t that good at my age Andy

 

Tom

My eyes ain't good either and I'm by the sounds of it a bit younger than you, lol.

The key is a big screen and zoom.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, PaulRepairShop said:

replaced except the balance

I assume you mean balance completes in other words balance plus hairspring.  then how is the balance attached to the bridge conveniently don't show any pictures the balance bridge.

27 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Is it possible that the timegrapher can’t lock on properly because it’s a cylinder escapement? It’s got to sound a lot different than a Swiss lever escapement.

yes how exactly does the cylinder watch produce the same sounds as a lever escapement when it's operating principle is entirely different? here's a snippet out of the much older timing machine manual where it explains that it does not sound like a lever escapement. Plus as you can see the image doesn't even look like a lever escapement either.

[PaulRepairShop]

 

10 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

If you're not getting an amplitude then I suggest you have a look at your timegrapher as it should be showing something unless the amplitude is so low it can register it.

The timegrapher showed the amplitude after a long time measuring, see picture below: 176. It seems too low, so I will fit a new stronger mainspring. I also noticed that the pocket watch (ligne 11 1/16) keeps time only is the mainspring is fully wound, which could imply that a partly unwound mainspring becomes too weak to empower the wheel train and scape wheel for the correct impulses.

[AndyGSi]

I hadn't realised it was a cylinder movement and as others have mentioned you may not get a good reading on the timegrapher.

Looking at the snowstorm you've got on the display I think you need to have another look through the movement before doing anything with the mainspring.

[PaulRepairShop]

The wheel train moves freely after a small turn of the winding stem, so no friction there. The barrel sits well in its bearings without any side play.

As it is a cylinder escapement, the readings on the timegrapher will not show straight lines because of the noice of the movement produced during the friction time of the escape teeth on the cylinder outer and inner wall. The only two straightforward sounds are the moments that a escaspe tooth touches the outer and innner cylinder wall.

[PaulRepairShop]

11 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi first check your timegrapher with a working watch to be sure it’s accurate.   Swapping balances between movements especially old movements such as cylinders as they are vibrated to match the movements as with all movements, the weight of the balance may differ, did you poise the balance before fitting it.  I take it it was a non runner before you started.

It was a non runner. The original balance had broken pivots and a badly damaged hairspring. After a long time measuring the timegrapher showed also the amplitude (176 degrees) and scattered pattern which, I assume, is to be expected for a cylinder escapement movement.

[watchweasol]

Hi. That movement was built before timegrapher came into use. As you say there are only two sources of noise the action on the outer ans inner walls of the cylinder. Put the dial and hands on and check its time keeping ability.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, PaulRepairShop said:

The timegrapher showed the amplitude after a long time measuring, see picture below: 176. It seems too low, so I will fit a new stronger mainspring

typically on a timing machine when the graphical display looks like snow globe affect in other words you cannot see anything resembling lines the numbers typically are not correct. In the case of a cylinder versus a lever escapement with the sounds are totally different it is impossible for the timing machine to do the amplitude.

31 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

Put the dial and hands on and check its time keeping ability.

yes this would be the best way to time the watch the timing machine is going to be worthless for this watch. Then it's a cylinder watch I would not expect outstanding timekeeping. 

[nevenbekriev]

OP, forget about the timegrapher. It is useless here. Put the hands on and check the watch after some time. Rate error in cylinders is several minutes/day and rate has fluctuations of several minutes/day. Did You lubricate the cylinder/cylinder wheel teeth? Lubrication is important and it can change significantly the rate. The hairspring usually is very thin and long ( has many coils) and that's why the regulator doesn't change the rate much. The amplitude can not be more than 180 (there is limiting pin on the balance rim) and 120 is very good amplitude, about 90 is the minimum acceptable. Observre the limiting pin, thus You will see what amplitude is.

[AndyGSi]

2 hours ago, PaulRepairShop said:

It was a non runner. The original balance had broken pivots and a badly damaged hairspring. After a long time measuring the timegrapher showed also the amplitude (176 degrees) and scattered pattern which, I assume, is to be expected for a cylinder escapement movement.

So this jewel isn't damaged then?

[PaulRepairShop]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

typically on a timing machine when the graphical display looks like snow globe affect in other words you cannot see anything resembling lines the numbers typically are not correct. In the case of a cylinder versus a lever escapement with the sounds are totally different it is impossible for the timing machine to do the amplitude.

yes this would be the best way to time the watch the timing machine is going to be worthless for this watch. Then it's a cylinder watch I would not expect outstanding timekeeping. 

My observation about this pocket watch loosing time was initialilly indeed based on observing the mounted hands. 

During initial services I lubricated all escape wheel teeth individually (Moebius 914) and from there distributed the oil to the cylinder inner and outer wall, from there the movement performed autostart after 1 1/2 turn of the mainspring barrel.

Could it be helpfull to slightly decrease the number of coils including the adjustment of the collet (balance nick should be aligned with the middle (1 of 3) nick on the mainplate)?

[PaulRepairShop]

8 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

So this jewel isn't damaged then?

Jewel is not damaged and causes no pivot side play either.

[PaulRepairShop]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

OP, forget about the timegrapher. It is useless here. Put the hands on and check the watch after some time. Rate error in cylinders is several minutes/day and rate has fluctuations of several minutes/day. Did You lubricate the cylinder/cylinder wheel teeth? Lubrication is important and it can change significantly the rate. The hairspring usually is very thin and long ( has many coils) and that's why the regulator doesn't change the rate much. The amplitude can not be more than 180 (there is limiting pin on the balance rim) and 120 is very good amplitude, about 90 is the minimum acceptable. Observre the limiting pin, thus You will see what amplitude is.

With the hands on I initially observed the time loss (indeed several minutes/day). I also did the lubrication as follows: lubricated all escape wheel teeth individually (Moebius 914) and from there distributed the oil to the cylinder inner and outer wall, from there the movement performed autostart after 1 1/2 turn of the mainspring barrel.

Observing the amplitude of the limiting pin on the balance wheel: it is about 90 max and only at a full wind of the mainspring.

[oldhippy]

Where did you get a new complete cylinder balance from? They haven't been made in decades.