AS 1920 calendar day wheel frustration!

[marcbooskay]

Hello all,

I am experiencing what should be a very straightforward issue with a day+date calendar works on an A Schild 1920 movement from the 1970's. The problem is the date change and day change are out of sync by around 15 hours! The date changes over without fanfare as it should at midnight, but the day wheel doesn't get pushed over until 15 hours later! This is not my first rodeo, but I am scratching my head on this one. The date driving wheel has a pusher on the bottom of the wheel to push the date wheel around, and a pusher on the top of the wheel to push the day wheel around. Sounds simple enough. Both pushers are permanently affixed to the driving wheel, so there is nothing to adjust. In my photo, the date wheel has just been pushed over (theoretical midnight) by the pusher on the wheel's bottom, but the day wheel pusher (topside) is very far away from where it should also be pushing the day wheel. I feel like I am looking right at an obvious fault, but I am not seeing it. Any ideas? I must note again that the date wheel function is working just as it should, with no hiccups. My current guess is that the driving wheel may fit but be for a different movement? But, I don't recall this calendar issue when I first evaluated the watch. In the photo, I have the day wheel laid on top of the movement so you can see that it is nothing exotic. Help!

[mpe7383]

Difficult to see clearly when zoomed, but looks like the top cam (pusher) should be loose on the wheel and be pushed around by the pin located on the other side of the date adjust wheel in the picture. This would allow for a kind of quick set for the date ring by forward and reversing the hands through midnight without affecting the day.

[GuyMontag]

On 11/19/2024 at 4:43 PM, mpe7383 said:

Difficult to see clearly when zoomed, but looks like the top cam (pusher) should be loose on the wheel and be pushed around by the pin located on the other side of the date adjust wheel in the picture. This would allow for a kind of quick set for the date ring by forward and reversing the hands through midnight without affecting the day.

The AS1920 has a date quickset that is achieved by pushing in on the crown. You can't see the mechanism in the photo as the Date Indicator Guard is covering it. In other iterations like in the AS2066 the top part of the Calendar Driving Wheel is spring loaded so that the day and date both have an instantaneous and simultaneous change at midnight.
 

On 11/19/2024 at 3:29 PM, marcbooskay said:

Hello all,

I am experiencing what should be a very straightforward issue with a day+date calendar works on an A Schild 1920 movement from the 1970's. The problem is the date change and day change are out of sync by around 15 hours! The date changes over without fanfare as it should at midnight, but the day wheel doesn't get pushed over until 15 hours later! This is not my first rodeo, but I am scratching my head on this one. The date driving wheel has a pusher on the bottom of the wheel to push the date wheel around, and a pusher on the top of the wheel to push the day wheel around. Sounds simple enough. Both pushers are permanently affixed to the driving wheel, so there is nothing to adjust. In my photo, the date wheel has just been pushed over (theoretical midnight) by the pusher on the wheel's bottom, but the day wheel pusher (topside) is very far away from where it should also be pushing the day wheel. I feel like I am looking right at an obvious fault, but I am not seeing it. Any ideas? I must note again that the date wheel function is working just as it should, with no hiccups. My current guess is that the driving wheel may fit but be for a different movement? But, I don't recall this calendar issue when I first evaluated the watch. In the photo, I have the day wheel laid on top of the movement so you can see that it is nothing exotic. Help!

 

I can't think of a reason why there is such a disparity in where that 'finger' on the top of the Calendar Driving Wheel is in comparison to the date change, but I have to say that it seems like I have nothing but problems with the day/date function in these AS movements. Like almost every single time. I have a bunch of watches in my 'To Be Serviced' pile and every time I pull one out and it has one of the AS movements with the Rube Goldberg esque date change I seem to gravitate to another watch.

I'm not through my first cup of coffee so I'm probably not thinking about this clearly, but my first thought is that the mechanism for the day change is so straight forward compared to the date change, that it's hard to see how that could be the issue (unless as you mention the Calendar Driving Wheel isn't the correct one. The Day Jumper is covered up in your photo, is the spring tucked under the Date Indicator Guard?). The Calendar Driving Wheel turns once every 24 hours, so looking at where the 'finger' on top is, it looks like it is currently near the 14:00 hour mark, so it makes sense that it off compared to the date change by about 15 hours.

My pre-coffee brain is thinking this: you mention that the date change happens correctly at midnight, but since you likely (?) set the hands based on when the date changed instead of the day, maybe it's the date change that is the issue. If you set the hands based on when the day changes, now the day is changing precisely at midnight and we are wondering why the date change is off. In order for the date change to happen at the correct time there needs to be a balance between the force that the Calendar Driving Wheel is exerting on the Unlocking Yoke and the force that the Unlocking Yoke Spring is also exerting on the Unlocking Yoke as the spring becomes loaded when the Unlocking Yoke pushes against it. If those forces aren't balanced correctly then the date change doesn't happen when it should. I'd look there and watch all of those parts under high magnification as you turn the crown through a day/date change.  None of this is likely germane, just thoughts really...

Edited November 22, 2024 by GuyMontag

[marcbooskay]

On 11/19/2024 at 7:43 PM, mpe7383 said:

Difficult to see clearly when zoomed, but looks like the top cam (pusher) should be loose on the wheel and be pushed around by the pin located on the other side of the date adjust wheel in the picture. This would allow for a kind of quick set for the date ring by forward and reversing the hands through midnight without affecting the day.

Yes, it would be logical to think that the top cam/pusher would be loose and/or adjustable, but on this movement it appears to be locked down via a permanent rivet. Thanks for your input on this head scratcher.

[AndyGSi]

Are you sure it's the same wheel that changes the Day & Date as looking at the
parts list I would have expected it to be the Day Jumper that changes the Day?

Can you post a video on YouTube of what happens during the changeovers.

Edit

Before you do the video can you post a picture without the Day disc in the way.

Edited November 23, 2024 by AndyGSi

[GuyMontag]

The Day Jumper stops it from advancing more than one day, it's the finger on top of the Calendar Driving Wheel that advances the day.

[AndyGSi]

15 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

The Day Jumper stops it from advancing more than one day, it's the finger on top of the Calendar Driving Wheel that advances the day.

Yes you're correct and looking at this snip from a YouTube video you've got it upside down.

[GuyMontag]

That looks like the calendar driving wheel from the AS1916/2066 family. I haven't worked on the AS1920 but an ebay photo shows it looking like the one in the OP's photo.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126319051193

[AndyGSi]

24 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

That looks like the calendar driving wheel from the AS1916/2066 family. I haven't worked on the AS1920 but an ebay photo shows it looking like the one in the OP's photo.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126319051193

Yes I thought the same but the only photo I can find for an 1920 wheel (if it is a 1920) looks the same as the YouTube snip I
posted only shows one side but you can see the pushers are 225Deg out of alignment which equates to the OPs 15 Hours.

Would be good to see the other side of the OPs wheel as I expect that's where the problem is.

Maybe the rivet has come loose and it's shifted?

Edit

According to everything I've found the 1916 and 1920 share the same wheel.

Also just realised on the clip above that there's no hole for a screw on this side unless that's just some sort of transport plug.

Edited November 24, 2024 by AndyGSi

[GuyMontag]

Hopefully that is it, it would be an easy fix.

Emmywatch says the Calendar Driving Wheel interchanges with the AS1916, which I have serviced. I looked at the video and I was wrong in my last post, the wheel isn't the same as the 2066, it looks like the OP's wheel. Here is a video of the quickset in action and the date change.
 

 

[AndyGSi]

10 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

Emmywatch says the Calendar Driving Wheel interchanges with the AS1916, which I have serviced. I looked at the video and I was wrong in my last post, the wheel isn't the same as the 2066, it looks like the OP's wheel. Here is a video of the quickset in action and the date change.

The problem is that the 1916 is date only.

This video should be a good comparison for the OP as to where the pusher is
when the date changes but still can't see how it would operate the day too.

Edit

Just realised that it's the top pusher you can see that would me the day wheel.

Edited November 24, 2024 by AndyGSi

[GuyMontag]

The 1916 is day and date. In the video you can see where the finger on the Calendar Driving Wheel is when the date changes, which looks to be where the teeth on the day wheel would be, so it is odd why the finger is so far off in the OP's photo. You idea of the rivet being loose and it shifting makes sense.

Edited November 24, 2024 by GuyMontag

[marcbooskay]

On 11/23/2024 at 4:32 PM, AndyGSi said:

Are you sure it's the same wheel that changes the Day & Date as looking at the
parts list I would have expected it to be the Day Jumper that changes the Day?

Can you post a video on YouTube of what happens during the changeovers.

Edit

Before you do the video can you post a picture without the Day disc in the way.

Thanks for trying to help me with this. Here is a link to a YouTube video I just uploaded. Thanks!

 

[marcbooskay]

On 11/22/2024 at 12:32 PM, GuyMontag said:

The AS1920 has a date quickset that is achieved by pushing in on the crown. You can't see the mechanism in the photo as the Date Indicator Guard is covering it. In other iterations like in the AS2066 the top part of the Calendar Driving Wheel is spring loaded so that the day and date both have an instantaneous and simultaneous change at midnight.
 

I can't think of a reason why there is such a disparity in where that 'finger' on the top of the Calendar Driving Wheel is in comparison to the date change, but I have to say that it seems like I have nothing but problems with the day/date function in these AS movements. Like almost every single time. I have a bunch of watches in my 'To Be Serviced' pile and every time I pull one out and it has one of the AS movements with the Rube Goldberg esque date change I seem to gravitate to another watch.

I'm not through my first cup of coffee so I'm probably not thinking about this clearly, but my first thought is that the mechanism for the day change is so straight forward compared to the date change, that it's hard to see how that could be the issue (unless as you mention the Calendar Driving Wheel isn't the correct one. The Day Jumper is covered up in your photo, is the spring tucked under the Date Indicator Guard?). The Calendar Driving Wheel turns once every 24 hours, so looking at where the 'finger' on top is, it looks like it is currently near the 14:00 hour mark, so it makes sense that it off compared to the date change by about 15 hours.

My pre-coffee brain is thinking this: you mention that the date change happens correctly at midnight, but since you likely (?) set the hands based on when the date changed instead of the day, maybe it's the date change that is the issue. If you set the hands based on when the day changes, now the day is changing precisely at midnight and we are wondering why the date change is off. In order for the date change to happen at the correct time there needs to be a balance between the force that the Calendar Driving Wheel is exerting on the Unlocking Yoke and the force that the Unlocking Yoke Spring is also exerting on the Unlocking Yoke as the spring becomes loaded when the Unlocking Yoke pushes against it. If those forces aren't balanced correctly then the date change doesn't happen when it should. I'd look there and watch all of those parts under high magnification as you turn the crown through a day/date change.  None of this is likely germane, just thoughts really...

Thanks for your input. I tried to evaluate the issue from the "day" perspective versus the "date" perspective, but nothing really changed. I have just added a video link further below to show exactly what is happening with my movement. Thanks!

[AndyGSi]

So the day finger looks 180Deg out of place as it's pointing down instead of up when the day changes.

I've just pulled this from my stock and with the day finger at 12 the date finger on the rear is at
9 (First Photo) which would mean the day would change slightly after the day as expected.

Second Photo is flipped with the date finger now at 6.

 

[marcbooskay]

22 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

So the day finger looks 180Deg out of place as it's pointing down instead of up when the day changes.

I've just pulled this from my stock and with the day finger at 12 the date finger on the rear is at
9 (First Photo) which would mean the day would change slightly after the day as expected.

Second Photo is flipped with the date finger now at 6.

 

Thanks for sharing that! So, that pretty much would confirm my suspicion  that my date driving wheel is defective or a part from a different caliber. The one in your photo would solve my problem.  Thanks!

Edited December 1, 2024 by RichardHarris123
Discussing selling

[RichardHarris123]

Hello @marcbooskay, buying or selling is prohibited on this forum, so I edited your post. Selling or buying, including postage can only be done by DM at the parties discretion. 

[AndyGSi]

51 minutes ago, marcbooskay said:

Thanks for sharing that! So, that pretty much would confirm my suspicion  that my date driving wheel is defective or a part from a different caliber.

Can you remove it and see where they are in relation to each other and if they do rotate when they should be fixed.

[marcbooskay]

14 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Can you remove it and see where they are in relation to each other and if they do rotate when they should be fixed.

Here are 2 photos. Topside, the cam points due north/12 o'clock. Flipped over without any other movement/rotation and the bottom cam points due west/9 o'clock. Nothing moves on this wheel; everything appears fixed and/or stuck in place.

[AndyGSi]

9 minutes ago, marcbooskay said:

Here are 2 photos. Topside, the cam points due north/12 o'clock. Flipped over without any other movement/rotation and the bottom cam points due west/9 o'clock. Nothing moves on this wheel; everything appears fixed and/or stuck in place.

So have you flipped this vertically or horizontally as this looks identical
to mine if flipped so the day finger is at 6 in the 2nd photo?

Can you also post a photo of the change movement now with this removed.

[marcbooskay]

32 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

So have you flipped this vertically or horizontally as this looks identical
to mine if flipped so the day finger is at 6 in the 2nd photo?

Can you also post a photo of the change movement now with this removed.

I realized how the wheel/cam orientation might be confusing to describe. So, assume you have x-ray vision and can see through the wheel as though it were clear. With the top/day cam pointing due north/12 o'clock, the underside date cam is pointing due east/3 o'clock. I am also including a new photo of the date mechanism. Thanks!

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, marcbooskay said:

I realized how the wheel/cam orientation might be confusing to describe. So, assume you have x-ray vision and can see through the wheel as though it were clear. With the top/day cam pointing due north/12 o'clock, the underside date cam is pointing due east/3 o'clock. I am also including a new photo of the date mechanism. Thanks!

OK so yes the operating lever for the date is on the left hand side and
with the day finger up your date finger is to the right so 180Deg out.

The only thing that confuses me now if the date lever looks like it would
operate with the finger rotating clockwise, not anti clockwise as it is.

Edit

Just knocked this up on the Cad with mine being the left and
yours the right with the Day finger at 12 and on the front.

 

 

Double Edit

God I must clean that screen tomorrow.

Edited December 2, 2024 by AndyGSi

[marcbooskay]

3 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

OK so yes the operating lever for the date is on the left hand side and
with the day finger up your date finger is to the right so 180Deg out.

The only thing that confuses me now if the date lever looks like it would
operate with the finger rotating clockwise, not anti clockwise as it is.

Edit

Just knocked this up on the Cad with mine being the left and
yours the right with the Day finger at 12 and on the front.

 

 

Double Edit

God I must clean that screen tomorrow.

Perfect! Yes, that's it exactly. You're quite talented!

[AndyGSi]

So what's your background with watch repairs and is this for you?

Any chance we can see the case and dial to complete the picture.

[marcbooskay]

On 12/2/2024 at 2:35 PM, AndyGSi said:

So what's your background with watch repairs and is this for you?

Any chance we can see the case and dial to complete the picture.

I have been a watch hobbyist for 25 years. 5 years ago, I opened my watch repair shop in the Durham, North Carolina area and also via mail-order. My website is TheWatchFixer.com .  The watch in question is a customer's watch and is currently disassembled in a parts tray. It's a 1975 Hamilton Clermont model. I am attaching a photo of what it would look like if assembled.