Seiko Quartz Movements (1221 and 2E20) - cannot reinsert stems - keyless?

[powasky]

Hey folks.

I have some experience with basic watchmaking. I've replaced dials, set hands, done movement swaps - that type of thing. I haven't taken a movement apart before.  I'm not afraid to give it a go if that's what I need to do here.  Here's the issue I'm facing: 

I pulled the stems on two watches to clean the case/bracelets (a 1221 and a 2E20) and cannot for the life of me get them back in place. AFAIK Seiko doesn't care what position the crown is in when the stem is removed, but I believe these were both fully inserted before I removed them.  

So I'm struggling to understand why I can't get these stems back in. They're both hitting resistance at about the same point, right after they're slightly inserted. I tried pushing the stem release, turning the stems while inserting, and nothing has worked.

I know that on some automatic movements, there's a keyless works issue that presents in this way. Is that what I'm experiencing here?

[AndyGSi]

Welcome to the forum.

Not sure about the 1221 but the 2E20 should have the crown inserted as you've said.

My suspicion is that you've pressed the release too hard and dislodged something in the works.

[powasky]

43 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Welcome to the forum.

Not sure about the 1221 but the 2E20 should have the crown inserted as you've said.

My suspicion is that you've pressed the release too hard and dislodged something in the works.

Thanks for the welcome!  I started hunting donor watches for the 2E20 so it looks like that's the route I'll have to go, assuming I can't fix this in another way.  

[watchweasol]

Hi. Most likely dislodged the keyless in some shape or form, only recourse is ti remove dial and hands and day/date complication. If fitted and inspect.   I have attached the tech sheet for the 2E20 to give you an idea of the parts involved. And the layout.  They will be similar.

4559_seiko 2E20A.pdf

[AndyGSi]

2 hours ago, powasky said:

Thanks for the welcome!  I started hunting donor watches for the 2E20 so it looks like that's the route I'll have to go, assuming I can't fix this in another way.  

Can you still see the dimple you pressed to release the stem?

2 hours ago, powasky said:

Thanks for the welcome!  I started hunting donor watches for the 2E20 so it looks like that's the route I'll have to go, assuming I can't fix this in another way.  

There are a few places that still have NOS or you could look for a VB20.

https://sdemanuele.com/shop/seiko-1/2e20-seiko2e20

https://www.stsupply.com/sii-s-epson-seiko-movement-vb20.html

Edited November 22, 2024 by AndyGSi

[powasky]

27 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Can you still see the dimple you pressed to release the stem?

There are a few places that still have NOS or you could look for a VB20.

https://sdemanuele.com/shop/seiko-1/2e20-seiko2e20

https://www.stsupply.com/sii-s-epson-seiko-movement-vb20.html

Yes, as far as I know the dimple never disappears.  

I was playing with it a bit more, and it seems like I can insert the crown/stem fully now - but despite the fact that it's fully inserted, it's still moving the hands as if I'm adjusting the time (position 1 I believe?).  I think this continues to point to a keyless issue, like watchweasol suggested.  

I have a few potentially silly questions:

• I have a 2E20a.  Is it clear what differentiates the "a" version from other 2E20s?
• Page 4 of the guide that watchweasol linked shows multiple hour and minute wheel combinations.  If I purchase a new movement, will it be likely that I cannibalize the parts from the current movement to ensure they're the same?  How would I know something like this before I purchase the new movement, or try to set hands?

Thank you both so much for your help/engagement here.  As I build my knowledge, I hope to do the same for other new folks in the future.  

 

[watchweasol]

Hi.  If you are going down the donor route I suggest you  have a look at the one you have first and see what’s the problem.  Remove movement , dial and hands , date and calendar wheels ( if fitted) and expose the keyless work, perhaps the setting lever /spring is either broken or dis lodged that way you have gained knowledge and a little experience.  All the best

[longtimerepairs]

On 11/22/2024 at 3:53 PM, powasky said:

Hey folks.

I have some experience with basic watchmaking. I've replaced dials, set hands, done movement swaps - that type of thing. I haven't taken a movement apart before.  I'm not afraid to give it a go if that's what I need to do here.  Here's the issue I'm facing: 

I pulled the stems on two watches to clean the case/bracelets (a 1221 and a 2E20) and cannot for the life of me get them back in place. AFAIK Seiko doesn't care what position the crown is in when the stem is removed, but I believe these were both fully inserted before I removed them.  

So I'm struggling to understand why I can't get these stems back in. They're both hitting resistance at about the same point, right after they're slightly inserted. I tried pushing the stem release, turning the stems while inserting, and nothing has worked.

I know that on some automatic movements, there's a keyless works issue that presents in this way. Is that what I'm experiencing here?

It sounds like your setting lever has jumped out of the hand-setting wheel. You need to take the dial off & have a look to see the position of these parts. (if it has a date ring it can be harder to see & repair)

[watchweasol]

Hi. If you have done movement swaps before you are halfway there.  I have added another file with more general information for you.   Have a go just take pictures at each step to be sure af a way back out.    All the best.

TZIllustratedGlossary.pdf

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, watchweasol said:

Hi.  If you are going down the donor route I suggest you  have a look at the one you have first and see what’s the problem.  Remove movement , dial and hands , date and calendar wheels ( if fitted) and expose the keyless work, perhaps the setting lever /spring is either broken or dis lodged that way you have gained knowledge and a little experience.  All the best

 

1 hour ago, longtimerepairs said:

It sounds like your setting lever has jumped out of the hand-setting wheel. You need to take the dial off & have a look to see the position of these parts. (if it has a date ring it can be harder to see & repair)

It's a quartz so removing the dial and hands will show nothing.

[powasky]

Hey folks!  Thanks to your guidance, I was able to resolve the problem on the 1221.  I actually cannot believe that I did it myself - I'm really proud!  Issue was seemingly simple. 

I pulled the dial and hands, and noticed that the clutch wheel was askew.  I was able to remove it, realign it, and boom the crown went in just fine.  

Here's a photo pointing to the clutch wheel in question, post-fix.  

[watchweasol]

Well done all it needed was a little application