JLC 929/3 Master Geographic (base JLC 889/2, IWC 3253, AP 2124)

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 12/2/2024 at 2:38 PM, Knebo said:

An update on this one.

It's just the click. So the special JLC service note can most likely be replace with the application of grease/thick oil in the usual spots.

you would expect that they ask for that lube spec for a reason wouldn't you.

[Knebo]

36 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

you would expect that they ask for that lube spec for a reason wouldn't you.

Well, I'm sure they thought about their choice of lubrication. Then again, the calibre 889 is produced since the 1970s and the service sheet is maybe just as old. They use 8141 as the thick oil and 8200 as the grease.. I don't see a reason why I shouldn't "upgrade" to HP1300 and 9504, respectively.

Likewise, I think that I can adjust the lubricant for the click. I think the idea for using a mix of benzine/hexane with sillicone is that they want a really minimal amount of lubrication. So i'll be extremely sparing with my application of 9504 (where the click interacts with click spring and wheel) and HP1300 (for the jewel holes). Any other suggestions are welcome, of course.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Knebo

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Knebo said:

Well, I'm sure they thought about their choice of lubrication. Then again, the calibre 889 is produced since the 1970s and the service sheet is maybe just as old. They use 8141 as the thick oil and 8200 as the grease.. I don't see a reason why I shouldn't "upgrade" to HP1300 and 9504, respectively.

Likewise, I think that I can adjust the lubricant for the click. I think the idea for using a mix of benzine/hexane with sillicone is that they want a really minimal amount of lubrication. So i'll be extremely sparing with my application of 9504 (where the click interacts with click spring and wheel) and HP1300 (for the jewel holes). Any other suggestions are welcome, of course.

Maybe the click needs to have a very light action ? Still seems a bit odd to suggest that concoction for a part with basic function. Maybe it doesn't just have a basic function ?

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Maybe the click needs to have a very light action ?

What do you mean by "light action"?

PS: thanks for engaging in this question!

Small correction on above oiling plan: the contact point between click and click spring is supposed to be 9415 (yes, the pallet fork oil/grease). I'll follow that. So it's only a question about lubricating the pivots...
 

 

Edited December 9, 2024 by Knebo

[Kalanag]

It’s obvious that I did not care about this clutch wheel enough last time. There is more to lubricate than just the tips.

Fortunately, I rarely use the manual winding

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, Knebo said:

What do you mean by "light action"?

PS: thanks for engaging in this question!

Small correction on above oiling plan: the contact point between click and click spring is supposed to be 9415 (yes, the pallet fork oil/grease). I'll follow that. So it's only a question about lubricating the pivots...
 

 

Ahh ok, that makes more sense, a little more. 9415 grease has the thixotropic property, to become more fluid when it's disturbed. 

[Knebo]

15 hours ago, Kalanag said:

It’s obvious that I did not care about this clutch wheel enough last time. There is more to lubricate than just the tips.

Fortunately, I rarely use the manual winding

I've looked at it closely now, under the microscope and testing its functioning. I'll share my picture and lubrication recommendation in the coming days.

 

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ahh ok, that makes more sense, a little more. 9415 grease has the thixotropic property, to become more fluid when it's disturbed. 

Yes, I guess it makes sense for the interaction of click and click spring. 9415 is extremely low in viscosity (110cSt -- that's less less than 9010) when "in movement", but basically turns to a grease with high stability when "idle". So when the click engages, it'll slide very well. But while the click is engaged, it won't run off the spring (like 9010 may do). 

I used HP1300 on the pivots for now. I'll test it whether that is working well. Hopefully, it won't "bind" and slow down the click action (rendering it non-functional). But could it be slower than a silicone layer?

[Knebo]

Sorry, very slow and piecemeal progress. I'm stuck because the new mainspring from Cousins is super delayed or maybe even lost by the French postal service. 

But well, here are the next steps that I was already able to do before the barrel and barrel bridge. 

 

Epilame treatment of pallets (syringe technique), escape wheel (removing epilame on pivots again with pithwood) and parts of the centre seconds wheel (I was probably over thinking to only apply to the centre part...). 

 

Oiling the fixed jewel settings of the escape wheel is indeed quite fiddly (like @Kalanag noted). Put a drop of oil and then push it through with a sharpend and polished oiler. I was surprised how much oil this setting swallowed until I reached the desired amount shown in the service manual

 

Positioning the train wheels and fitted the bridge 

 

 

Turning the movement around to replace the oiled (not shown) balance jewels. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, Knebo said:

Sorry, very slow and piecemeal progress. I'm stuck because the new mainspring from Cousins is super delayed or maybe even lost by the French postal service. 

But well, here are the next steps that I was already able to do before the barrel and barrel bridge. 

 

Epilame treatment of pallets (syringe technique), escape wheel (removing epilame on pivots again with pithwood) and parts of the centre seconds wheel (I was probably over thinking to only apply to the centre part...). 

 

Oiling the fixed jewel settings of the escape wheel is indeed quite fiddly (like @Kalanag noted). Put a drop of oil and then push it through with a sharpend and polished oiler. I was surprised how much oil this setting swallowed until I reached the desired amount shown in the service manual

 

Positioning the train wheels and fitted the bridge 

 

 

Turning the movement around to replace the oiled (not shown) balance jewels. 

Have you got enough room to scoop the barrel under the center wheel ?

[Knebo]

21 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Have you got enough room to scoop the barrel under the center wheel ?

As it is now, it's absolutely no problem to put the barrel

[Neverenoughwatches]

40 minutes ago, Knebo said:

As it is now, it's absolutely no problem to put the barrel

Cool, ha centerwheel yet to go in ! Some barrels can be tight going in after the train and risk bending the center wheel if forced if an arbor has a long pivot.

[Knebo]

55 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Cool, ha centerwheel yet to go in ! Some barrels can be tight going in after the train and risk bending the center wheel if forced if an arbor has a long pivot.

There's no centre (or "central") wheel. There's a "free canon pinion on the dial side that is driven directly by the barrel; and a central seconds pinion (not wheel) on the train side.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, Knebo said:

There's no centre (or "central") wheel. There's a "free canon pinion on the dial side that is driven directly by the barrel; and a central seconds pinion (not wheel) on the train side.

Sounds fun, second wheel then after the barrel. Be interesting to see all the train fitted, I wish I was there, stick the kettle on for me will ya, I'm on my way

[Knebo]

You're welcome to join @Neverenoughwatches. Could you just drive past Cousins and pick up that mainspring that I just ordered a second time (because the first one seems to be lost in the French postal service)? Then we can get going with the rest of the watch.

Here's the picture from disassembly of what you find under the barrel bridge (what I'm holding with the tweezers is the 3rd wheel which belongs under the train bridge):

On 12/4/2024 at 8:47 AM, Knebo said:

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, Knebo said:

You're welcome to join @Neverenoughwatches. Could you just drive past Cousins and pick up that mainspring that I just ordered a second time (because the first one seems to be lost in the French postal service)? Then we can get going with the rest of the watch.

Here's the picture from disassembly of what you find under the barrel bridge (what I'm holding with the tweezers is the 3rd wheel which belongs under the train bridge):

Will do that's an interesting wheel sat above the barrel, that would make a great logo for something. 

[Knebo]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

would make a great logo for something

I think the Isle of Man is ahead of you on that 

Yes, it's an interesting wheel. It allows manual winding without driving the wheels of the automatic winding works. It slips on one direction.

It's discussed a bit above. I will post details when I get to further assembly. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

56 minutes ago, Knebo said:

I think the Isle of Man is ahead of you on that 

Yes, it's an interesting wheel. It allows manual winding without driving the wheels of the automatic winding works. It slips on one direction.

It's discussed a bit above. I will post details when I get to further assembly. 

That didn't click in my head, the legs are on backwards . "The 3 legs of Mann" sounds more like a porn movie

[Kalanag]

I have just found my written notes from the last service. Contrary to my recollection, I had lubricated the three springs with D5. I‘m relieved… 

[Knebo]

15 hours ago, Kalanag said:

I have just found my written notes from the last service. Contrary to my recollection, I had lubricated the three springs with D5. I‘m relieved… 

Great! 

[Knebo]

Just to let you know that even the second mainspring I've ordered from Cousins is being delayed and I therefore won't be able to get this watch done before I go on holidays .

I'll post again in early January..

 

 

[Kalanag]

I ordered the genuine mainspring from an ebay seller in Greece. It worked fine.

I hope you receive your package soon and keep my fingers crossed!

[Knebo]

2 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

I ordered the genuine mainspring from an ebay seller in Greece. It worked fine.

I hope you receive your package soon and keep my fingers crossed!

I'm sure at least the second order will come. It's also a genuine JLC spring. Only 17 GBP (plus tax and shipping). 

[Kalanag]

My spring was £50,- 

[Knebo]

OK, finally my write up on the full assembly!

The order of assembly is a bit unorthodox (train, auto-works and keyless before barrel bridge), but it works.

 

1. TRAIN: see previous posts. Extra info: oiling: escape wheel 9010, fourth wheel 9020 (instead of 9010), third wheel HP1300. 

2. KEYLESS WORKS: see previous posts

3. AUTOMATIC WORKS (without rotor):

this wheel needs no lubrication

 

the wig wag reverser is oiled as follows:

I use 9504 instead of D4 for the teeth. I srpead the grease as thinly as possible and then run the wheels over it.

In all the other places, I use HP1300 instead of D4.

The wig wag is secured with this small plate (screw not pictured here). No lubrication here at all.

 

4. BARREL and BARREL BRIDGE:

breaking grease 8217 in the barrel, thinly distributed

this is a supposedly original JLC mainspring for the calibre

but please refer to this thread on my issues with rebanking which essentially concludes that the mainspring may be too strong.

note that it turns counter-clockwise

 

HP1300

 

I put a very small amount of HP1300 on the jewel for the click (despite no lubrication indicated in service manual)

9415 (!) on the click spring

 

click in place

other wheels in place...

 

Now the centre seconds pinion:

first, oiling the rim of the tube. I used 9020 instead of 9010.

 

then in goes the pinion

 

and now I apply a bit of 9415 specifically on the opposite side of where the friction spring will be (so that the friction spring will then spread the lubricant around the pinion, instead of accidentally just pushing it down to the wrong place when installing it)

 

 

Barrel and ratchet wheel

 

Now this last one, which needs to be lubricated in itself. I use 9504 instead of HP1300. This wheel slips when the watch is manually wound and thus disengages the automatic works (so that the rotor doesn't turn when wound manually). 

after applying a few drops of grease, I spread it around by moving the arms of the wheel.

I squeeze a small amount of HP1300 under the steel disk with a scalpel. A bit fiddly:

preparing the underside of the barrel bridge. Always HP1300.

tiny drops of HP1300 here

 

Finally, installing the barrel bridge. BE VERY CAREFUL that the centre seconds tension spring is positioned on the pinion ON THE SIDE OF THE BALANCE. The little window in the bridge allows gentle manipulation to nudge it in the right direction.

There are lots of wheels etc to align, so take your time until it all falls into place.

 

Now the pallet fork. 

...and the balance. Balance jewels lubricated as usual with 9010. 

I let it run for a few minutes to scrape of a "channel" of epilame from the pallet stones (I know, this may be overkill, but I buy it). I then remove the balance again and oil the exit stone with 9415 in 5 small applications and advancing the pallet for in-between applications. and put the balance back afterwards.

One of the 9415 drops. Not so easy to photograph.

 

BASE MOVEMENT DONE. It runs well.

Next post will be the complication module "calibre 929".

 

Edited January 10 by Knebo

[mikepilk]

Beautiful looking movement.

I was going to make a comment about the barrel looking very full of mainspring. But looking back over my pics, I see that auto movement barrels seem to me more full than manual wind. Something I hadn't noticed before.