Help identifying a Cardinal watch movement

[Jessye]

Hello fellow lovers of ticky bits!  To be very clear right off the bat I am not a professional by any stretch, so forgive me if I say something...odd.  I need assitance or guidance on identifying a movement out of a Cardinal watch as the mainspring is broken and I have been searching for ages for a replacement.  I do know that Cardinal used Soviet/Russian movements but none of my searches have come up with anything similar and I can't find anything in my Bestfit books.  I have taken the measurements as I was taught and even Cousins doesn't have what I need, they come close enough but don't have any with the right end.  I have scoured over the movement and the only mark is a number stamped on the barrel bridge.   It's a small movement, only 20.3 mm which is making my search even more difficult.  

If this was just a practice movement or my own watch I wouldn't bother but it's the watch of a family member and it has a lot of sentimental value to them.  

[nevenbekriev]

This is Zaria 2009, the earliest version

[AndyGSi]

Welcome to the forum.

Zaria 2009

Edit

Just to clarify it is in Bestfit but not 100% correct.

 

Edited November 28, 2024 by AndyGSi

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Jessye said:

Soviet/Russian movements

one of the problems with the bestfit book is it's based on parts parts listing etc. were available. There is no point in listing watches that no parts are available. there is a problem of time range of the bestfit it only really covers watches ever relevant in the mid-60s to somewhere in the 70s and if you're outside of that range is not going to comfort

1 hour ago, Jessye said:

mainspring is broken

even though it appears to be they found your mainspring for you it would be helpful if we knew the dimensions of the spring you're looking for?

 

1 hour ago, Jessye said:

but don't have any with the right end

then maybe they didn't find the mainspring what is the problem with the end or basically what does the end look like?

[Jessye]

Brilliant!   I really appreciate this site and it's members, otherwise newbies like me would have to sit and cry in the corner. 

One more question if I may.  The end of the broken mainspring is a Tee end (with corresponding slot in the barrell) but the one that Cousins have that are close enough only have a normal end.  Would a normal end spring work for a barrell with the Tee end slot?  I will examine the inside of the barrel in more detail to see if there is also a notch.   In seeing your responses it has occured to me that the broken spring is not the correct spring for this movement.  A previous tinkerer may have just used what they had. 

The measurements of the spring needed as per the barrel are:  thickness: 0.10, length: 270, width: 1.15.  The spring listed above is a lot longer, what if any impact would that have on the performance of a watch?  I have read that small differences won't make much of a difference but haven't learnt what large differences such as in this case would make.  

Thank you once again and I hope to be able to oneday be as knowledgeable (if it's possible)   

 

 

[AndyGSi]

If the thickness is correct at 0.10 then it would be too strong for the movement.

In regards to the length that determines the running time.

The 270 length would be for around an 8mm barrel so I think as you say, it's not the right one anyway.

Not sure where in the world you are but it may be worth messaging this eBayer to see if they can confirm what 2009 this came from.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384902161222

[JohnR725]

20 hours ago, Jessye said:

The end of the broken mainspring is a Tee end (

it's not exactly a T end.

On 11/28/2024 at 12:46 PM, AndyGSi said:

Zaria 2009

this of course is extremely helpful let's look at the mainspring catalog see if it's there and also get an answer to the other question of the type of end it is. then we also have to go back and look at the bestfit book word answer to a question

so an image below we see 2009 we see the dimensions and the initials DB which is definition of the end.

so definition of the ends of the Springs it's not actually a T and it's a little more than that.

 

On 11/28/2024 at 12:46 PM, AndyGSi said:

Just to clarify it is in Bestfit but not 100% correct.

the problem is if it's not 100% correct then is it the correct watch? We need something on the bottom of the page notice how there's a star in front of the name?

so according to this the parts seen in the image should all be identical but conceivably everything else may not be. often times you will find we go through the book a whole bunch of watches will have identical setting parts basically traced back to base caliber but lots of other variations.

Let's look at best fit online and see what they tell us. Helpful because it's usually a newer listing unhelpful because is no pictures at all.

21 hours ago, Jessye said:

The measurements of the spring needed as per the barrel are:  thickness: 0.10, length: 270, width: 1.15.  The spring listed above is a lot longer, what if any impact would that have on the performance of a watch?  I have read that small differences won't make much of a difference but haven't learnt what large differences such as in this case would make.  

usually with mainsprings you can have a little variations like the width can't be larger or it will not fit the barrel. Thickness didn't have a little bit of variations there we also get interesting problems of if the original spring was blued steel versus a modern white spring that will produce variations even if the thickness is the same. I'm not sure if there's a general rule on the percentage of the length but if it is too long it's going to interfere with your running time.

then currently multitasking with too many windows open before I close best fit online I is went back and did a search for the company name no model number to see if there are other variations of mainsprings yes is lots of other variations watches but it looks like all of them use the exact same mainspring. So that gives you a best fit mainspring number and let's see if cousins has the GR mainspring it's a little bit thinner but everything else should work fine.

out of curiosity I did a search for the best fit part number and here's one on eBay. Yes it's amazing what you can find on eBay

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144612203497

oh and before you leave eBay you could do a search for  Zaria watch mainspring looks like there's quite a few mainsprings for a variety of models including yours

then back to the cousins and looks like they also have a mainspring. Just be careful when you're ordering that it does say DB oh as they also have the spring with the regular end.

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Let's look at best fit online and see what they tell us. Helpful because it's usually a newer listing unhelpful because is no pictures at all.

The problem I see with this is that other information online shows a different mainspring for the 2009B compared with the 2009 & 2009A?

Maybe  @nevenbekriev can shed some light on this.

[nevenbekriev]

Zaria 2009B is completely different movement, it is released 20 years later than 2009. The problem is that I have never seen data about russian movements springs, and even have no such movements to measure the spring. But I will ask in the russian forum, probably will get answer. I used to repair such watches  but it was before  35-40 years, so I have only pail memories.

http://forum.watch.ru/showthread.php?p=7113015#post7113015

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, AndyGSi said:

The problem I see with this is that other information online shows a different mainspring for the 2009B compared with the 2009 & 2009A?

this does tend to be a classic problem with identifying watch parts is when you look at various sources you will find various pieces of information which are not always in agreement.

and of course the problem with all reference material is it typically is it updated. So for instance American pocket watch parts a reference is printed and the watches made for quite a few more years goes through lots of variations in the vintage book doesn't magically adjust to the changes made the future

then we do have this link which once again suggests that all the mainsprings at least in this grouping are all the same

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?ref=[cZDXJV

 

On 11/29/2024 at 12:22 PM, Jessye said:

  thickness: 0.10, length: 270, width: 1.15. 

then we have this usually the best way to get a mainspring providing it hasn't been swapped by something inappropriate if we assume this is the original spring that we have the original dimensions.

so in the GR mainspring book indicates that the 2009, 2009B and 2014 have identical mainsprings which dimension wise look similar to what we have above. The width is almost identical the thickness is right the length is a minor problem. There 50 mm too short but it does have the right end. Unfortunately I can't find the dimensions of the best spring.

 

[AndyGSi]

I think another key piece of information here apart from what @nevenbekriev has already added is that the barrels are also different part numbers.

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

think another key piece of information here apart from what @nevenbekriev has already added is that the barrels are also different part numbers.

how kale give you a link because this one's easy to access it's all the watches that at least they have it should be roughly equivalent a best fit. But I have found it's not 100% exactly the same as bestfit

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Zaria 2009B

then I still have a concern over which version it is but okay I guess it's this version

in any case here is a link which actually has four separate versions except the last one just has the stem? In other words they don't actually know what parts at all other than the stem

John in a case looking at the 2009B as I go down the list at the link below clicking the parts every single part only fits that watch it may be something else but not in this series.even the pallet fork arbor only cross references to a few things but not in the series impact on pallet fork arbor because of you look at Swiss watches a click on pallet fork arbor it usually is a really really really long list because the Swiss individual companies do not make all their individual parts

then I'm going to check a few random parts but the roller roller is compatible with the rest of them but the balance complete of course is not so the balance complete is somehow different for all the various watches but the roller is not.

so really don't know what the say I do know that as I posted above the dimensions do match the GR mainspring close enough that it would work and I don't have any listing with the bestfit spring is unless somebody wants to buy the one off eBay and measure it but I did notice if you open the package he won't take it back.

http://cgi.julesborel.com/cgi-bin/matcgi2?begin=ZAR_&end=ZAR_&label=Calibres_Manufactured_by_ZARIA

almost ready to give up.I found this interesting link and it has pictures. which means we need a picture from up above and it would be helpful if it was rotated so let me get something.

Okay we have a problem the website fingerprint for the B not the watch. Although it still doesn't change the mainsprings sizing that I pointed out up above if the size is right it should work

I've also added a second link down below because on that website they have pictures of the movements both front and back and disassembly.

so visually looking at the pictures or images on both websites it looks like it's just the plain ordinary 2009?

 

 

https://oldswisswatches.com/watch-parts-branded/zaria-calibre-movement-and-spare-parts/

https://17jewels.info/movements/z/zaria/

 

 

 

 

[AndyGSi]

8 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

so visually looking at the pictures or images on both websites it looks like it's just the plain ordinary 2009?

Yes, here are the actual movements from the parts list.

 

 

[Jessye]

I've read over everyone's replies many times and I am convinced that the spring that was in the watch is not the right spring as the spring measurements don't come close, and I feel a little bit better about mainsprings.   I'm in Canada so as soon as our postal system.... well to be polite... figures itself out I will be able to order a new spring. 

All of the information you have provided is fasinating and I am more than grateful to you all.