Balance spring questions.

[Bill1]

Hi to All,

I have had no luck in the manipulation of balance springs. I have basically ruined 5 or more practicing and have come to the conclusion that I don't have the dexterity. I mainly work on old Seiko or Citizen movements. The main problem I usually encounter is the the balance spring being "bunched up" to one side  - not being concentric. (I have de-magnetized all)

As I said I usually work on Seiko or Citizen because of parts availability. I would like to work on other / older movements.

With that being said - if the Balance spring is ruined, is repair of the movement possible?  Can new replacement hairsprings be obtained? (not using a doner  - possibility of getting a bad balance spring - you don't know what your getting.)

What information, if any would you need to order a replacement? - particularly if dealing with vintage movements.  Is it a similar process to ordering a replacement main spring?

Regards,

Bill.

[AndyGSi]

Photos would help with the current problems your having.

Regarding a replacement balance spring for other movements this is entirely
dependent on the movement as some are more readily available then others. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Bill1 said:

come to the conclusion that I don't have the dexterity. 

It's just practice Bill, the ability to manipulate a hairspring does not come overnight for anybody. You need a basic understanding of what effects your actions have on a hairspring after that...it's just a shed load of regular practice  matey. 

1 hour ago, Bill1 said:

Can new replacement hairsprings be obtained? 

I think that all depends on what for. If you're talking about old vintage Swiss movements then i highly doubt anyone is making them for the original movements ( for clones probably are available ) . Anything that Swatch is making then not a chance direct from them for Joe Public.  New old stock come up on Ebay regularly, usable condition is anyone's guess. Even if ok...then you wont have a spec as to what it will work for. Uncolleted raw springs...if you are struggling with manipulation...then colleting and springing a hairspring is practically out of the question, plus" ideally" you would need a vibrating tool that are insanely expensive and tricky to use tending to want to trash the spring ( yes I've tried it a few times, its great fun ) .  Its not looking promising so far is it ?  Then there was light at the end of the tunnel...a small remainder of the great Smiths company in the UK, they stock/make hairsprings of all sizes and materials.  Will they work ? Well we'll never know, because the two times that I spoke on the phone to the guy that owns/manages it....gave me the opinion that he just happens to be one the most unhelpful and ignorant t.wats I've ever come across....and I've come across quite a few in my time. 

So basically the older the movement is the less likely you are to get a new hairspring for it. And if you want to try fitting a raw unspecified spring that may or maynot work or work correct then you need ine of these bad boys.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[Curare]

There are heaps of videos of the subject on Youtube, they have helped me fix a few hairsprings

[HectorLooi]

From my experience, 90% of the time, the bend is only in one place and that's at the regulator arm.

Whether the bend is caused by dropping the watch or by rough handling by a previous watchmaker, the hairspring usually bends at the fixed point along the hairspring. And that's usually just in front of the regulator pins.

So 90% of the time, an off-centred hairspring can be corrected by just tweaking the spring with a thin hairspring tool, just at this single point, as what @nevenbekriev has shown in another post.

Do you guys have the same experience? 

Edited December 10, 2024 by HectorLooi
Content

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, Bill1 said:

I have basically ruined 5 or more practicing

Are you practicing on practice balance wheels or are you practicing on live watches? Ideally should find disposable balance wheels or disposable hairsprings and start with those. Learning watch repair is all about practice and ideally should practice practice things that are disposable.

7 hours ago, Bill1 said:

With that being said - if the Balance spring is ruined, is repair of the movement possible?  Can new replacement hairsprings be obtained? (not using a doner  - possibility of getting a bad balance spring - you don't know what your getting.)

What information, if any would you need to order a replacement? - particularly if dealing with vintage movements.  Is it a similar process to ordering a replacement main spring?

Problem with vintage is even if it was available at one time it probably is not necessarily available now. In other words at one time the factory existed you can look in the catalog you go to your local material house or send a postcard or something and they can order it for you it would show up but the vintage companies don't exist anymore so we only have existing stock for the most part that is a big problem

if you're dealing with Breguet Overcoil Hairspring Type hairsprings like found on a lot of pocket watches. Usually those were available as a separate replaceable spring. But because balance wheels have to match very very closely to hairspring that means if you have a premade hairspring which typically is what these were they were premade to exact specifications. Then the balance wheel has to be matched in which case you would've had timing screws of various weights and you would've played with your timing screws to match your balance wheel to your hairspring. Then there were a few Flat hairsprings available at one time but they're not available anymore and of course you'd still need the timing screws to match.

Then the other problem with hairsprings would be you can go to schools to learn how to vibrated hairsprings. In fact here's a link is a class you take the class I'm not sure if they're the entrance test to see if you can qualified take the class maybe just happy to take your money and give you the class to learn how to vibrated hairsprings but

https://www.wostep.ch/en/training/balance-hairspring-manufacturing

Then there is the problem the annoying Swiss consolidating manufacturing for well profitability reasons. So one time hairsprings were made in a generic size range and were available. But somebody figured out it was not profitable to make generic sizes when it would be better if they hairspring company would manufacturer hairsprings specific for the watch your manufacturing. So the company is now either make a hairspring for your watch or supply you with the exact hairspring you need for you to make your watch hairspring. In other words they no longer make generic hairsprings that were available for purchase. So typically the might find them on eBay. Then in addition to hairspring you need the miscellaneous stuff to go with and a heck of a lot of skill.

There are hints and rumors that there are still people out there that will make replacement hairsprings but I've only heard it as rumors I have yet to see anyone modern that will actually do this as typically live all retired.

So for instance we once had to this

So the basic simple answer of our hairsprings available would be no at least for modern watches. It would typically be a balance complete if the watch company would supply parts often times they prefer to sell entire movements and balance completes may or may not be available.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

From my experience, 90% of the time, the bend is only in one place and that's at the regulator arm.

Whether the bend is caused by dropping the watch or by rough handling by a previous watchmaker, the hairspring usually bends at the fixed point along the hairspring. And that's usually just in front of the regulator pins.

So 90% of the time, an off-centred hairspring can be corrected by just tweaking the spring with a thin hairspring tool, just at this single point, as what @nevenbekriev has shown in another post.

Do you guys have the same experience? 

Mostly there or a bend or twist of the hairspring as it exits the stud .  Otherwise somewhere along the terminal curve in line with what Hector has said...where the regulator pins may have been sited at a previous point in time. These stem from rough handling when removing the balance from the movement ( a tug or overstretching of the hairspring) which can also affect exiting at the collet . Other common places would be areas of trauma damage from accidental impacts. 

[praezis]

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

then you need ine of these bad boys

But not this one. It is ridiculously overpriced and not even a Luthy, but a cheaper variant.

Used Luthys are around 600.

Frank

[Neverenoughwatches]

I thought it was expensive for that one.

 Better ?

[CYCLOPS]

I KNOW YOU DE-MAGNATIZED BUT ALSO MAKE SURE TO CLEAN THE SPRING/BALANCE WELL......JUST ONE MORE STEP 

[praezis]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Better ?

Sure. That is the real one, yours?

Now you only need this for perfection:
spir_flyer_d_e.pdf

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, praezis said:

Sure. That is the real one, yours?

Now you only need this for perfection:
spir_flyer_d_e.pdf

No not mine , but I do have one , its the cheaper variant one.  To set the master balance into action you agitate the frame that connects to the balance casement to and fro. The balance motion is also viewed differently with the cheaper one, I think the luthy has a cover of some description that goes over the glass to help imagine the oscillations between the master and the adjusting balance. Just realised a lot of my photos contain a cuppa as well

[praezis]

Wow! Congratulation, you own the $2k device 

 

 

[Bill1]

Hi,

I would like to thank all for the replies. I will continue to try manipulating the spring in order to get better - the comments on where to adjust the spring are helpful as I was unaware where the bend / kink usually occurs. I had a look at the Dutch watchmaker "Kalle's" You Tube video - I got all inspired, but still managed to bugger up a few springs lol.

Thanks again to the group for your helpful input.

 

Bill

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, praezis said:

Wow! Congratulation, you own the $2k device 

 

 

Yes but only according to that seller

[fclass308]

5 hours ago, Bill1 said:

Hi,

I would like to thank all for the replies. I will continue to try manipulating the spring in order to get better - the comments on where to adjust the spring are helpful as I was unaware where the bend / kink usually occurs. I had a look at the Dutch watchmaker "Kalle's" You Tube video - I got all inspired, but still managed to bugger up a few springs lol.

Thanks again to the group for your helpful input.

 

Bill

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. I have buggered up 6 hairsprings in my practice to learn how to handle the balance/hairspring in an NH-35. $14 a pop is fairly cheap instruction cost. Now I have it pretty well down and I have had success on a few removal and reinstall of the balance cock and wheel. But I almost gave up after number 5... 

 

Endeavor to persevere. 

[nevenbekriev]

14 hours ago, Bill1 said:

Hi,

I would like to thank all for the replies. I will continue to try manipulating the spring in order to get better - the comments on where to adjust the spring are helpful as I was unaware where the bend / kink usually occurs. I had a look at the Dutch watchmaker "Kalle's" You Tube video - I got all inspired, but still managed to bugger up a few springs lol.

Thanks again to the group for your helpful input.

 

Bill

Hi Bill,

Can we see some pictures of that buggered springs? May be it is no so bad. May be with correct directions You will be able to bring them (or at least some of them) back to life.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi Bill,

Can we see some pictures of that buggered springs? May be it is no so bad. May be with correct directions You will be able to bring them (or at least some of them) back to life.

Buggered Your English is coming along just great Nev.

[nevenbekriev]

8 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Buggered Your English is coming along just great Nev.

I am learning here. Little by little...

[Bill1]

Hi,

I have attached some pictures of the Balance spring that I would like to fix. I have not removed it from the balance wheel as I do not have a steaking set.(if that matters?) When taking the pictures I noticed the spring could be in contact with the Arm of the balance wheel .

Bill

[Knebo]

Hmm, hard to say from the pictures. You're missing a good picture from truly above and one exactly from the side -- both when the balance is installed.

It actually looks quite alright to me. If anything (but not sure!), a minor adjustment in the overcoil (here's some basic info: https://www.buzzufy.com/blog/2018/09/24/the-breguet-or-overcoil-hairspring/)

Are you sure that your problem is with the hairspring? How did you determine that? Any timegrapher readings or does it not run at all? And please tell us what exact movement this is.

 

Edited December 11, 2024 by Knebo

[AndyGSi]

Overcoil looks better in some photos then others.

It could be just the photo but it looks too close to the balance.

[Bill1]

Hi Kenebo, AndyGSi

It is a Reketa 2609A 21 jewel movement. I applied a wind without the Balance fitted and checked the pallet fork which kicked implying power in the movement.

When installed it will spin with a puff of air, but soon stops, so I cannot even get a timegrapher reading. I have other 2609A movements and tried swapping their balance spring about - still no joy. 

I have attached two more pictures as suggested by Kenebo - they are the best I could do.

 

Bill

[JohnR725]

19 minutes ago, Bill1 said:

ried swapping their balance spring about

Usually swapping things around desperately searching for the answer will not usually give you the answer. You need to figure out what the problem is and then deal with the problem

like here's a problem the picture? It's hard to tell but it looks to me like your hairspring may actually be touching the balance arm.  

1 hour ago, Bill1 said:

I have attached some pictures of the Balance spring that I would like to fix. I have not removed it from the balance wheel as I do not have a steaking set.(if that matters?) When taking the pictures I noticed the spring could be in contact with the Arm of the balance wheel .

One of the problems of taking pictures of balance wheels out of the watch is that is not where the problem is occurring. When the balance wheel is out of the watch for instance the stud is no longer holding the hairspring up and it will typically say downwards you would have to hold the balance wheel sideways to see if they hairspring is where it's supposed to be because otherwise gravity will take effect. Often times people of the balance wheel out of the watch it will lean in one direction or the other that changes things it won't look right

Here for instance they hairspring is definitely touching the balance arms the effect of gravity. But the stud that last little bit looks like it's twisted upwards that doesn't look right at all. Hairspring supposed to come up go over and remain flat this looks like it's been stretched slightly.

 

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Bill,

No need to make other pictures, everything is clear. Give me some time, I will explain what to do and how exactly. I will need to make some pictures and put some points and arrows there and in You pictures too.