Balance spring questions.

[Bill1]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Usually swapping things around desperately searching for the answer will not usually give you the answer. You need to figure out what the problem is and then deal with the problem

like here's a problem the picture? It's hard to tell but it looks to me like your hairspring may actually be touching the balance arm.  

One of the problems of taking pictures of balance wheels out of the watch is that is not where the problem is occurring. When the balance wheel is out of the watch for instance the stud is no longer holding the hairspring up and it will typically say downwards you would have to hold the balance wheel sideways to see if they hairspring is where it's supposed to be because otherwise gravity will take effect. Often times people of the balance wheel out of the watch it will lean in one direction or the other that changes things it won't look right

Here for instance they hairspring is definitely touching the balance arms the effect of gravity. But the stud that last little bit looks like it's twisted upwards that doesn't look right at all. Hairspring supposed to come up go over and remain flat this looks like it's been stretched slightly.

 

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to give me an answer - it's appreciated.

[Bill1]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi Bill,

No need to make other pictures, everything is clear. Give me some time, I will explain what to do and how exactly. I will need to make some pictures and put some points and arrows there and in You pictures too.

Thanks alot - super appreciated, looking forward to your explanation.

[Knebo]

4 hours ago, Bill1 said:

I have other 2609A movements and tried swapping their balance spring about - still no joy. 

Hey @Bill1, can you just confirm what you swapped? Hairspring only, balance complete, or even balance with cock? And you had several ones? And where the symptoms the same each time? 

 

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi Bill,

No need to make other pictures, everything is clear. Give me some time, I will explain what to do and how exactly. I will need to make some pictures and put some points and arrows there and in You pictures too.

Looking forward to that as well! 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, I will start with some pictures of the spring as it should be.

As You see, most of the picture are from aside and the aim is to show that the overcoil must be in a plain that is parallel to the spring body. The distance from every point of the overcoil to the spring body is equal. This distance is determined by the 'Z'-curve, which is actually the place where the overcoil lifts above the spring body. Then I have shown a picture from above - this is to show how the overcoil must look and where is the place of the stud relative to spring body - this is above the 4th coil from the periphery to center.

Now here is You spring:

It is obvious that the overcoil is twisted up. This is the main problem, as the spring with such overcoil will be pressed towards the balance arm. What to do? You need to untwist it.

You see points from 1 to 5. The idea is to untwist portion by portion. You must use 2 tweezers. One will grasp the spring in point 1, the other in point 2 and You will twist by rotating tweezers 2 relatively to 1 in untwisting direction. Actually, tweezers at 1 will stay still, the tips of tweezers 2 will be guided in place and the tweezers tilted a little in a manner that grasping the spring will cause twisting. You look at the height of point 3 and when it  gets equal to the height of point 2 (looking from aside), then this is done and You move one point ahead - grasp in points 2 and 3 and observe at 4, and so on to the end. This will need some practice, but what is needed is patience and good sharp tweezers. The good thing is that the overcoil is above the spring body and grasping with tweezers is easy. In the end, the overcoil must be in plain and parallel to the spring body. The distance between the stud bottom and the spring should be about the 1.5 height of the spring (width of the band of which the spring is made).

Next is the overcoil shape.

You must bend the overcoil inwards in several places, beginning where I have shown. Use one tweezers and needle (or the other tweezers, but hold them closed and use as a needle). The tweezers must grasp where shown with two small red circles, the needle will press in place and with direction shown with red arrow, the aim is to bring the distance which is shown with yellow arrows the same as the spacing of the coils in the untouched places. Then continue shaping the overcoil moving ahead and to the end, when the stud will come where shown with orange circle. and the overcoil will start looking as needed. Then, check again the height of the overcoil and if needed, make small corrections.

The lat thing is the portion where the spring is fixed to the stud. The interest thing is that the hole in the cock not always holds the stud upright and fixing the stud when replacing the balance assembly is always connected with spring adjustment near the stud. If the spring is OK, then it can be done without removing the spring from the balance, but for a newbie it will be  easier to see what He does if the spring is removed. The last pictures show how the spring must look when fixed on the cock.

To achieve this, the spring can be twisted and bent up/down near the stud in order to bring it parallel and bent left/right in order to make it stay without pressure between regulator pins. The collet should stay right above the stones, thus guarantee the spring is centered. 

I realize that it all sounds simple, but it is not so easy to do if one has not practice. And it is easier to start with alarm clocks first, then big pocket watches and then wrist ones.  The idea is to understand what needs the result to be in the end and what is the way to do it step by step. In the end the spring should not touch anything, which means there should be safe distance between it and all the other things, no matter what the position of the movement and the position of the balance in the movement is.

Edited December 12, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[praezis]

Hello Nev,
you have my highest respect that you took your time to explain and make photos!

A few remarks: 
if bent by accident, that may be cured in just one location. Here this location seems to be between 1 and 3: directly opposite the highest part of the overcoil. Repair: twisting as explained.

I was a bit astonished about your sample hairspring (top view). That is rather a sample how it should not look like .
The last >90 deg to the stud are anything but concentric (what you correctly always use to emphasize).
The overcoil is a #85 according given sizes. But I never saw such shape, it surely doesn‘t agree with the rules. Or was that the soviet type that had to differ from all the capitalism coil shapes?

One set of sample coils that agree with theory (Helwig, Glashutte)

Personally I avoid to give practical advice in cases like this unless I am sure the worker had learned everything about hairsprings and Breguet coils in advance (from textbooks, not from watching videos). Else I would regard it support for destroying hairsprings.

Frank

 

[Jon]

3 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

And it is easier to start with alarm clocks first, then big pocket watches and then wrist ones. 

I use these clock springs, as @nevenbekrievsuggested with my students before letting them loose on watch hairsprings, which get progressively smaller 

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/hairsprings-clock

[nevenbekriev]

3 hours ago, praezis said:

Hello Nev,
you have my highest respect that you took your time to explain and make photos!

A few remarks: 
if bent by accident, that may be cured in just one location. Here this location seems to be between 1 and 3: directly opposite the highest part of the overcoil. Repair: twisting as explained.

I was a bit astonished about your sample hairspring (top view). That is rather a sample how it should not look like .
The last >90 deg to the stud are anything but concentric (what you correctly always use to emphasize).
The overcoil is a #85 according given sizes. But I never saw such shape, it surely doesn‘t agree with the rules. Or was that the soviet type that had to differ from all the capitalism coil shapes?

One set of sample coils that agree with theory (Helwig, Glashutte)

Personally I avoid to give practical advice in cases like this unless I am sure the worker had learned everything about hairsprings and Breguet coils in advance (from textbooks, not from watching videos). Else I would regard it support for destroying hairsprings.

Frank

 

Hi Frank, I agree that the overcoil shape is a little bit odd, but I just toke it out of a movement and it was looking correct in place. The picture from above now I see is not very clear, in a manner that the overcoil is not easy to see and outline against the body of the spring, but in practice may be not 90 but the last 85 degr. are concentric.  It is enough for the max regulator movement to '+'. Actually, the coil should be like 70 or 75. The radius gradually must decrease and then last 90 degr to be concentric.

The usual way of bending the spring to this state is when the balance it taken out, then the body of the spring is caught by the center seconds wheel and all the overcoil gets twisted and stretched - this are  my observations on this calibre.

By the way, all balances from Raketa 2603, Wostok 2605 and all Pobeda-type 26 calibres with antishock will fit here. Sometimes even 2602 movements without antishock are fitted with antishock type balances and such balance will fit. Only 2609HA is totally different.

Edited December 12, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[Bill1]

11 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

OK, I will start with some pictures of the spring as it should be.

As You see, most of the picture are from aside and the aim is to show that the overcoil must be in a plain that is parallel to the spring body. The distance from every point of the overcoil to the spring body is equal. This distance is determined by the 'Z'-curve, which is actually the place where the overcoil lifts above the spring body. Then I have shown a picture from above - this is to show how the overcoil must look and where is the place of the stud relative to spring body - this is above the 4th coil from the periphery to center.

Now here is You spring:

It is obvious that the overcoil is twisted up. This is the main problem, as the spring with such overcoil will be pressed towards the balance arm. What to do? You need to untwist it.

You see points from 1 to 5. The idea is to untwist portion by portion. You must use 2 tweezers. One will grasp the spring in point 1, the other in point 2 and You will twist by rotating tweezers 2 relatively to 1 in untwisting direction. Actually, tweezers at 1 will stay still, the tips of tweezers 2 will be guided in place and the tweezers tilted a little in a manner that grasping the spring will cause twisting. You look at the height of point 3 and when it  gets equal to the height of point 2 (looking from aside), then this is done and You move one point ahead - grasp in points 2 and 3 and observe at 4, and so on to the end. This will need some practice, but what is needed is patience and good sharp tweezers. The good thing is that the overcoil is above the spring body and grasping with tweezers is easy. In the end, the overcoil must be in plain and parallel to the spring body. The distance between the stud bottom and the spring should be about the 1.5 height of the spring (width of the band of which the spring is made).

Next is the overcoil shape.

You must bend the overcoil inwards in several places, beginning where I have shown. Use one tweezers and needle (or the other tweezers, but hold them closed and use as a needle). The tweezers must grasp where shown with two small red circles, the needle will press in place and with direction shown with red arrow, the aim is to bring the distance which is shown with yellow arrows the same as the spacing of the coils in the untouched places. Then continue shaping the overcoil moving ahead and to the end, when the stud will come where shown with orange circle. and the overcoil will start looking as needed. Then, check again the height of the overcoil and if needed, make small corrections.

The lat thing is the portion where the spring is fixed to the stud. The interest thing is that the hole in the cock not always holds the stud upright and fixing the stud when replacing the balance assembly is always connected with spring adjustment near the stud. If the spring is OK, then it can be done without removing the spring from the balance, but for a newbie it will be  easier to see what He does if the spring is removed. The last pictures show how the spring must look when fixed on the cock.

To achieve this, the spring can be twisted and bent up/down near the stud in order to bring it parallel and bent left/right in order to make it stay without pressure between regulator pins. The collet should stay right above the stones, thus guarantee the spring is centered. 

I realize that it all sounds simple, but it is not so easy to do if one has not practice. And it is easier to start with alarm clocks first, then big pocket watches and then wrist ones.  The idea is to understand what needs the result to be in the end and what is the way to do it step by step. In the end the spring should not touch anything, which means there should be safe distance between it and all the other things, no matter what the position of the movement and the position of the balance in the movement is.

 

[Bill1]

Nevenbekriev,

Thank you taking your time to explain what needs to be done - very concise and the pictures are most helpful. I am away working for a week or so, but my intention is to try and follow your advice and try to manipulate the spring when I return. I am glad I asked about this as obviously there is so much to learn. The amateur guys on You Tube make it look so easy. In truth the Balance seems to be my weak spot - it has frustrated me to the point where I had to walk away on more than one occasion - I just want the movement to work and have a sense of achievement, especially after spending a few hours working on a movement.

Again, many thanks

Bill.