Waltham Model 1894 Guidance

[coreymsnow]

Hi all!

I'm still relatively new to the hobby and when my mom  found out that I was getting into it, she dug a bunch of old pocketwatches and wristwatch movements she had sitting around.

After isolating and sealing up the ones that had radium and tritium in them, I started working on this Waltham Model 1894 (see pictures below).

It wasn't running and wouldn't wind, so I figured even if I screwed it up, it was a great learning opportunity.

I've gotten the watch fully disassembled now, which was actually easier than I thought it would  be, to my great relief. I think that it's larger helps a lot.

The dial had a hairline crack and a clear mark at the 3:30 point, along with a dent in the case, that showed the watch had been dropped- hard. Or maybe someone threw it? In any case, as soon as I saw that I figured the balance staff was broken, and as soon as the case came off, the balance was wobbling around like jello.

Once I got it apart I made a poor man's light table by putting a piece of paper over the lens of a really bright LED worklight and sticking a 20x loupe over my phone's lens to be able to take some very closeup pics.

I feared that several of the jewels were broken but after looking at them under high magnification, it seems that only one is cracked. And looking at the balance staff, the missing pivots on top and bottom are as clear as day.

So, my specific questions:

• How hard is it to replace the jewels? They appear to be screw-set, so can I just take the screws out and lift out the jewel or will it need to be pushed out? Also, are replacements readily available?
• An add-on to the first question: Does a crack in the jewel mean it must be replaced? I can't tell if it's affecting the bearing surface but given that it goes through the whole jewel, I assume it does. But will that affect the movement's operation?
• How do I source a new balance? I don't have a staking set, so replacing the balance staff is probably not in the cards, nor would it be trivial for me to remount the hairspring. If I can get a complete balance and put this one aside for future Corey to fix, that might be best. So far I've looked on eBay and some other places, and found some watches that were similar but not identical- if I were to get a donor movement, what do I need to look for to make sure it's compatible with this one?
• The mainspring is also broken- explains why it wouldn't wind. Where to go for such items? And should I look for one of this style or are one of the newer "s-style" springs good?

Thanks again for any insight and advice, and I appreciate your time.

-Corey

Edited December 12, 2024 by coreymsnow
changing image order

[coreymsnow]

I left out the photo of the balance, and I can't edit my original post any longer. Sorry for the extra reply- here's the balance in closeup. The black bars are from the rolling shutter effect on my phone's camera.

 

[RichardHarris123]

I see you're in the US, look at the resource section for material houses. The cracked jewel should be replaced but you need a jewelers set, so could be a future project.  You won't get a balance wheel, the staff needs replacing, so another future project. The modern S type springs are better but you might need to reduce the strength. 

Are both pivots on the balance staff broken? 

[coreymsnow]

5 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I see you're in the US, look at the resource section for material houses. The cracked jewel should be replaced but you need a jewelers set, so could be a future project.  You won't get a balance wheel, the staff needs replacing, so another future project. The modern S type springs are better but you might need to reduce the strength. 

Are both pivots on the balance staff broken? 

Sadly, both pivots are broken. I didn't try to get a picture of the bottom pivot, but it's the same situation. Whatever happened to this watch was very violent, it would seem.

I'll look through the resources section, of course. Can you clarify what a "jeweler's set" is? I'm not sure if you're referring to a punch used to set jewels or a set of tools- I would guess the former.

I may have some better luck with a donor movement to steal the balance complete from. I'm reading up on how to replace a balance staff and the procedure seems straightforward enough, assuming you have the right tools, which I don't have at the moment. But it's not urgent, so if I can't replace the balance I'll just put it away until I can get the tools necessary- there's always other watches to work on!

Thank you for your time and the reply.

-Corey

[mbwatch]

This actually can be replaced without any complicated jeweling tools. Waltham and Elgin and other American companies made these watches to be very quickly and frequently repaired, so the jewels are housed in brass settings which are then screwed down. All you need to do is find a donor, or a replacement for those jewels on ebay. A "parts or repair" 1894 movement will have the jewel you need, and it is also possible to search for new old stock or jewel lots for Waltham 16 size (or whatever size this happens to be). It is MUCH easier than replacing jewels on an old Swiss watch.

 

The same goes for the balance complete - find a donor on ebay that is advertised as having a good balance and you may get a lot of the way there. Now, note that there is likely a serial number scratched onto the balance wheel that matches the serial of the movement plates. It is nice to keep these together and matched so keep your broken balance around until you are ready to invest in a staking set and learn to replace the staff. Then reunite your serial stamped parts.

 

I find working on American pocket watches extremely rewarding, and if you like it, you'l end up collecting a lot of interesting purpose-made tools.

Also, familiarize yourself with daveswatchparts.com - He stocks a lot of parts for American movements, and even if something is not listed on his website there is a good chance he has it and can get you exactly what you need.

Oh one other thing about the jewels - after removing the screws, you can just gently push them out with pegwood. The whole brass setting will slide out. While it is firmly fit, it won't be "friction" fit such that it takes force and a special tool to remove. Pegwood will do, and there are also vintage brass "jewel pusher" tools which are sort of a star shaped thing with multiple sizes of brass nubs designed to push on the settings without cracking the jewels.

Edited December 12, 2024 by mbwatch

[RichardHarris123]

Cheers @mbwatch, I didn't think about changing the whole end piece with the jewel attached.  

Oops, jewelliing set, Google it.

[AndyGSi]

Here's some details showing Waltham Jewels & Parts.

https://watchguy.co.uk/tmp/Marshall 5.pdf

Edited December 12, 2024 by AndyGSi

[coreymsnow]

16 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

This actually can be replaced without any complicated jeweling tools. Waltham and Elgin and other American companies made these watches to be very quickly and frequently repaired, so the jewels are housed in brass settings which are then screwed down. All you need to do is find a donor, or a replacement for those jewels on ebay. A "parts or repair" 1894 movement will have the jewel you need, and it is also possible to search for new old stock or jewel lots for Waltham 16 size (or whatever size this happens to be). It is MUCH easier than replacing jewels on an old Swiss watch.

 

The same goes for the balance complete - find a donor on ebay that is advertised as having a good balance and you may get a lot of the way there. Now, note that there is likely a serial number scratched onto the balance wheel that matches the serial of the movement plates. It is nice to keep these together and matched so keep your broken balance around until you are ready to invest in a staking set and learn to replace the staff. Then reunite your serial stamped parts.

 

I find working on American pocket watches extremely rewarding, and if you like it, you'l end up collecting a lot of interesting purpose-made tools.

Also, familiarize yourself with daveswatchparts.com - He stocks a lot of parts for American movements, and even if something is not listed on his website there is a good chance he has it and can get you exactly what you need.

Oh one other thing about the jewels - after removing the screws, you can just gently push them out with pegwood. The whole brass setting will slide out. While it is firmly fit, it won't be "friction" fit such that it takes force and a special tool to remove. Pegwood will do, and there are also vintage brass "jewel pusher" tools which are sort of a star shaped thing with multiple sizes of brass nubs designed to push on the settings without cracking the jewels.

Thanks! I had thought that the jewels would be relatively easy to remove since they were held in by screws. It's a 12S size. I saw some jewels for sale that fit that size, so that might be a good option. I do like working on pocket watches, and although this is only the second one I've done anything with, it's a lot of fun and very rewarding.

I did note that the serial numbers on all the plates match, and I had been considering exactly what you said about not wanting to swap them out. I'm starting to lean toward setting this one aside until I can get a good staking set and fix the staff.

I just have to develop a better tweezer technique! I'm launching the microscopic screws off the table quite a bit less often now, which I call progress.

5 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Cheers @mbwatch, I didn't think about changing the whole end piece with the jewel attached.  

Oops, jewelliing set, Google it.

Got it, thanks for the clarification.

[nevenbekriev]

OP, just to add that jewels in jewel settings also have different hole diameters. That is important to know when You search for jewel setting. There are lot of variations of one movement made in the years of production and often parts from a donor movement will not fit because pivot can't get in the jewel hole or enters but with wobble. This is true for the balances and balance staffs too.

[coreymsnow]

18 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

OP, just to add that jewels in jewel settings also have different hole diameters. That is important to know when You search for jewel setting. There are lot of variations of one movement made in the years of production and often parts from a donor movement will not fit because pivot can't get in the jewel hole or enters but with wobble. This is true for the balances and balance staffs too.

What's the best way to find out the diameter of the jewel pivot hole?

[nevenbekriev]

The easier way is to measure the pivot diameter. The other ways need specialized tools. There are gages for holes measuring - this may be set of pins with different known diameters , or tapered things like broaches that have marks for the diameter. Old stones are brittle, so one has to be careful when measures.