Should I get an Elma ultrasonic cleaner or something cheaper?

[VWatchie]

I am considering buying this ultrasonic cleaner named Elma "Easy" Line E10H. It is quite an investment, but I hope to get a high-quality ultrasonic cleaner that not only does its expected job but also lasts for many years. That said, as an enthusiast, I will be running it quite infrequently.

Looking at YouTube videos, all "watch parts cleaning experts" seem to agree that the frequency when cleaning watch parts should be at least 40 KHz, but this machine is at 37 KHz. This makes me wonder because it is marketed for cleaning movement parts (among other things). I wonder who is right and who is wrong.

The question is whether I would look for another ultrasonic cleaner as there are much cheaper alternatives. The question is whether the more affordable options do as good (or better?) a job and whether I can expect them not to break down or lose effectiveness over time.

I am very interested to hear about your experiences and views!

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I am considering buying this ultrasonic cleaner named Elma "Easy" Line E10H. It is quite an investment, but I hope to get a high-quality ultrasonic cleaner that not only does its expected job but also lasts for many years. That said, as an enthusiast, I will be running it quite infrequently.

Looking at YouTube videos, all "watch parts cleaning experts" seem to agree that the frequency when cleaning watch parts should be at least 40 KHz, but this machine is at 37 KHz. This makes me wonder because it is marketed for cleaning movement parts (among other things). I wonder who is right and who is wrong.

The question is whether I would look for another ultrasonic cleaner as there are much cheaper alternatives. The question is whether the more affordable options do as good (or better?) a job and whether I can expect them not to break down or lose effectiveness over time.

I am very interested to hear about your experiences and views!

Is this your first USCM.. H ?

I wouldn't expect the cleaning difference between 37khz and 40ish khs to be that great. High 40s maybe, Elma will know why they chose 37khs... optimum cleaning without damage probably .

My experience of cheap usm is...I bought a medium sized one, that would be about 2 litres of water, for around 50 quid 3 years ago. It has a heating function and two khz levels of sonic cleaning. This served me very well, but i wanted something smaller, more portable to sit a bit closer to my bench. So I bought an 800 ml option for about the same price but without the two extra functions. It lasted about ten watch cleans then the transducer fell off the tank, I sent it back to Amazon for a refund. I'm now back to using my first one after making a modification to it, its now perfect for what I want and cleans, as far as i can tell, very well.

[VWatchie]

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Edited December 13, 2024 by VWatchie

[AndyGSi]

Got one of these about 18 months ago which is 40kHz and heated.

Although i haven't cleaned many watches since I've had it, I've never had any problems.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B098PDM4RV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

To add that it's been used quite a few time on constant heating for days to dissolve stems and still runs fine.

[RichardHarris123]

Read this

I can't copy the link for some reason

 

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by RichardHarris123

[HectorLooi]

I used a cheap China made ultrasonic cleaner in my clinic for many years and it worked perfectly.

When it comes to ultrasonic cleaners, do not get those fancy touch screens, membrane switch, digital display types. Get one with a manual timer, like a toaster oven.

Ultrasonic cleaning solutions are rather strange. It is designed to creep along surfaces and into small cracks and loosen dirt. Any solution that drips down the sides of your machine will creep under the machine, into chassis screw holes, under front panel stickers, into holes for the LEDs, etc. The solution destroys circuit boards. The solution will creep into the manual timer and destroy them too, but manual timers are cheap, circuit boards are not.

I used to help a friend who has a dental supply company. And I used to repair a lot of ultrasonic cleaners for him, including Elma. Most of them were damaged by ultrasonic solution getting into places where it isn't supposed to go.

Elmas are generally ok. They don't seem to survive solution damage any better than cheaper units. But when they spoil, the repair charges are eye-watering. 

Elma also doesn't give their distributors very much support like in the areas of technical training.

I would advise you to get a cheap China unit. For the price of an Elma, you could buy 5 China units.

[VWatchie]

No, it's not my first. The one (and only) I had (Chinese) worked well for about five watch cleans (like yours). After that, the transducer hardly stirred the water in the tank. It was total junk and the reason I'm hoping an Elma would be worth it.

Also, with the Elma, you can get a lid in which you place beakers which would make the processes a lot less messy. The idea is to place the parts in my rotating Elma cleaning machine basket, do the cleaning in the US, then transfer the basket to my cleaning machine, spin off, and rinse (rotating) in distilled water and IPA.

[HectorLooi]

Most transducers are bonded on with epoxy. And epoxy's biggest enemy is heat. I don't recommend using the ultrasonic cleaner with heaters turned on because it will weaken the epoxy and result in debonding.

Never put objects directly on the bottom of the tank. This will cause heat buildup because there is insufficient circulation of fluid to carry the heat away. This is also why I don't like the beaker holders that come with the units. With the ultrasonic turned on, the vibrations can cause the beaker to slip down and touch the bottom. I prefer to use smaller beakers and put them in the basket.

There are some ultrasonic transducers that are bonded and screwed down to a metal stud welded to the bottom of the tank. These are, in my opinion, the most secure way of attaching a transducer to the tank. But you can never tell the construction method just by looking at it.

[Malocchio]

What about cleaner fluids, do they make a difference? I've been using Oregon brand fluid and sometimes just a dish washing fluid (Fairy etc) for case parts. The US fluid makes parts perhaps a bit shinier but other than that is there a big difference in cleaning power? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Got one of these about 18 months ago which is 40kHz and heated.

Although i haven't cleaned many watches since I've had it, I've never had any problems.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B098PDM4RV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

To add that it's been used quite a few time on constant heating for days to dissolve stems and still runs fine.

I have the two litre version of that exact one,.they've gone up in price but still cheap.

14 hours ago, VWatchie said:

No, it's not my first. The one (and only) I had (Chinese) worked well for about five watch cleans (like yours). After that, the transducer hardly stirred the water in the tank. It was total junk and the reason I'm hoping an Elma would be worth it.

Also, with the Elma, you can get a lid in which you place beakers which would make the processes a lot less messy. The idea is to place the parts in my rotating Elma cleaning machine basket, do the cleaning in the US, then transfer the basket to my cleaning machine, spin off, and rinse (rotating) in distilled water and IPA.

Sounds like the same problem that my second one had. I assumed the transducer had become detached from the tank, as I could still hear it buzzing, but it was not acting on the tank water. I made a lid for my first one with holes in it, and sat three stainless steel cups in them. Works great now.

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, Malocchio said:

What about cleaner fluids, do they make a difference? I've been using Oregon brand fluid and sometimes just a dish washing fluid (Fairy etc) for case parts. The US fluid makes parts perhaps a bit shinier but other than that is there a big difference in cleaning power? 

Most definitely. 

If I wanted to brighten as well as clean brass parts, I'd use an ammoniated cleaner like L&R #111 or Elma Red. For removing organic matter from watch cas4s and bracelets, I'd use a dental or surgical instrument cleaner.

 

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Most transducers are bonded on with epoxy. And epoxy's biggest enemy is heat. I don't recommend using the ultrasonic cleaner with heaters turned on because it will weaken the epoxy and result in debonding.

Yes epoxy and heat is rather interesting. Sometimes what I machining parts I will epoxy because it has really nice holding power and then I will put the thing in a pot of boiling water wagon just tap off the object nice and clean. Also if you want to take out watch crystals and up epoxy Danube oil level in water and I'll just pop out. But it does seem odd that manufacturers would use Epoque see and have a heating system so they may be using a higher temperature E epoxy or something else

10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Never put objects directly on the bottom of the tank. This will cause heat buildup because there is insufficient circulation of fluid to carry the heat away. This is also why I don't like the beaker holders that come with the units. With the ultrasonic turned on, the vibrations can cause the beaker to slip down and touch the bottom. I prefer to use smaller beakers and put them in the basket.

I had a small ultrasonic machine that I used for cleaning watch parts that actually came with a glass beaker and recommended putting it in the tank With water between the tank in the beaker. This would of course cause in discussion groups of people telling me how stupid I am because you must never do this even though it's the way it came. Then the cheap little ultrasonic ran about 20 years of occasionally cleaning watches and worked perfect until it finally died.

But I've also seen larger ultrasonic machines were people put metal clock plates or other large metal objects and shattered their transducers. So yes it usually is recommended not to have things directly on top of the transducer. One theory I heard was if it's solid enough feel reflect back into the transducer which really bad I do not know if that's true or not I do know they look really bad when the shattered.

I was trying to find another picture of the bigger machine that I was using when the little one disintegrated. But I did find a picture the little one purchased from the drugstore when they're on sale or there were just really cheap. In other words newfangled ultrasonic cleaning machine with beaker worked really well. Even if I did get schooled in the discussion groups

 

Okay that your machine somebody didn't want it and gave it to me. So it to prevent the beaker from sitting on the very bottom not that it hurt the little machine as far as I get tell I have a piece of plastic with square holes in it and it fits in the tank units up about hard to tell the picture but at least half an inch maybe an inch than the beaker can sit on that and not be on top of the transducer.

 

 

[mikepilk]

My cheap Chinese 1.3L ultrasonic is similar to the one in @AndyGSi's pic, but with knobs in place of touch buttons. After looking at the specs of the ultrasonics in pro cleaning machines, I decided on 40kHz and 60W power.

I think people who complain of stripping shellac from pallet jewels etc may be using machines with more than 60W.

Using Elma fluids, 4 mins clean, 2x 2 mins rinse gets the parts clean for me.

[Neverenoughwatches]

20 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Also, with the Elma, you can get a lid in which you place beakers which would make the processes a lot less messy. The idea is to place the parts in my rotating Elma cleaning machine basket, do the cleaning in the US, then transfer the basket to my cleaning machine, spin off, and rinse (rotating) in distilled water and IPA.

I think this is a great idea H , and some thing that I now do. Loosen up all the gunk in the USM, then apply a 3 minute rotary clean to the basket to wash the loosened crud away, spin off the excess cleaner and then a couple of rinse cycles as normal.

13 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Never put objects directly on the bottom of the tank. This will cause heat buildup because there is insufficient circulation of fluid to carry the heat away. This is also why I don't like the beaker holders that come with the units. With the ultrasonic turned on, the vibrations can cause the beaker to slip down and touch the bottom. I prefer to use smaller beakers and put them in the basket.

I considered the wire basket that goes with the tank a barrier, so i did away with for part cleaning. Made a lid with three holes and use tapered stainless steel cups initially so that can't slip down. Add a collar to whatever beakers you are using so they can't move downwards. 

[rehajm]

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I have the two litre version of that exact one,.they've gone up in price but still cheap

Same. The LED indicators are failing but otherwise gets the job done…

[VWatchie]

Finally, I had time to do the research I wanted to do before ordering my ultrasonic cleaner, and now it's done. I went for a small device (0.7 litres) that should work with the cleaning basket from my Elma watch cleaning machine.

I would have preferred to get Elma's ultrasonic cleaner, but the price, £423 including tax and shipping, feels unjustifiable for me as an enthusiast. The machine I ordered cost me £64 including tax, shipping, and a 3-year extended warranty, which I paid an extra £6.4 for.

I chose this particular ultrasonic cleaner because of the serious and detailed presentation on the website and the site's German (which often indicates quality). After completing the purchase, the feeling was confirmed in the email they sent, which not only congratulated me on my purchase but also included detailed purchase information on delivery time, warranty, and right of withdrawal, as well as the manual for the ultrasonic cleaner in several languages, including English. I love the German precision!

Now, it remains to be seen if the machine meets my expectations, but I’ll get back to that.

Here is the link to the page for anyone interested: https://www.expondo.de/ulsonix-ultraschallreiniger-0-7-liter-basic-10050033

 

[VWatchie]

Even though I don’t have any encouraging news, here’s an update for those who are following (and not following) this thread.

In short, I’m not particularly impressed with—and quite disappointed with—my newly purchased ultrasonic cleaner. It doesn’t fit the glass jar in which I had planned to submerge the basket from my watch cleaning machine. This is because the listed dimensions of the ultrasonic cleaner refer to the tank’s size, not the basket’s. The basket itself is only 12 cm wide, 6 cm deep, and 4.5 cm high.

Instead, I had to fill the entire tank (approximately 0.7 litres) with my cleaning solution (ELMA Red 1:9) and stack the baskets on top of each other.

So, how effective was the cleaning? Almost nonexistent. The results were so poor that I suspected something might be wrong with the ultrasonic cleaner.

I tested it by holding a thin aluminium foil sheet (1/100 mm thick) in the tank for a minute. It became clear that it's only effective directly above the transducer. So technically, it functions as intended, but it does not meet my needs.

I refuse to invest in an ELMA ultrasonic cleaner, as I find it too risky (now having this experience) given the high cost.

For now, I’ve decided to stick with my old method: first, brushing off the parts in a degreaser (Horosolv) with a brush—time-consuming, tedious, smelly, and toxic—and then using my over 70-year-old ELMA watch cleaning machine (without ultrasound). At least this gives me good results. If I still find parts that aren’t perfectly clean after this process, I’ll clean them by hand—which I had hoped to avoid.

So far, no good experiences with ultrasonic cleaning.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 2/5/2025 at 1:37 PM, VWatchie said:

Finally, I had time to do the research I wanted to do before ordering my ultrasonic cleaner, and now it's done. I went for a small device (0.7 litres) that should work with the cleaning basket from my Elma watch cleaning machine.

I would have preferred to get Elma's ultrasonic cleaner, but the price, £423 including tax and shipping, feels unjustifiable for me as an enthusiast. The machine I ordered cost me £64 including tax, shipping, and a 3-year extended warranty, which I paid an extra £6.4 for.

I chose this particular ultrasonic cleaner because of the serious and detailed presentation on the website and the site's German (which often indicates quality). After completing the purchase, the feeling was confirmed in the email they sent, which not only congratulated me on my purchase but also included detailed purchase information on delivery time, warranty, and right of withdrawal, as well as the manual for the ultrasonic cleaner in several languages, including English. I love the German precision!

Now, it remains to be seen if the machine meets my expectations, but I’ll get back to that.

Here is the link to the page for anyone interested: https://www.expondo.de/ulsonix-ultraschallreiniger-0-7-liter-basic-10050033

 

I had the same size, which was really handy to be close on my bench. The main idea was to float small containers with hairsprings etc in them, aiming for near direct cavitation action. It did brake though after a couple of weeks. I was sort of glad this happened as the pro to a bigger one is making a lid to hold the containers.

23 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Even though I don’t have any encouraging news, here’s an update for those who are following (and not following) this thread.

In short, I’m not particularly impressed with—and quite disappointed with—my newly purchased ultrasonic cleaner. It doesn’t fit the glass jar in which I had planned to submerge the basket from my watch cleaning machine. This is because the listed dimensions of the ultrasonic cleaner refer to the tank’s size, not the basket’s. The basket itself is only 12 cm wide, 6 cm deep, and 4.5 cm high.

Instead, I had to fill the entire tank (approximately 0.7 litres) with my cleaning solution (ELMA Red 1:9) and stack the baskets on top of each other.

So, how effective was the cleaning? Almost nonexistent. The results were so poor that I suspected something might be wrong with the ultrasonic cleaner.

I tested it by holding a thin aluminium foil sheet (1/100 mm thick) in the tank for a minute. It became clear that it's only effective directly above the transducer. So technically, it functions as intended, but it does not meet my needs.

I refuse to invest in an ELMA ultrasonic cleaner, as I find it too risky (now having this experience) given the high cost.

For now, I’ve decided to stick with my old method: first, brushing off the parts in a degreaser (Horosolv) with a brush—time-consuming, tedious, smelly, and toxic—and then using my over 70-year-old ELMA watch cleaning machine (without ultrasound). At least this gives me good results. If I still find parts that aren’t perfectly clean after this process, I’ll clean them by hand—which I had hoped to avoid.

So far, no good experiences with ultrasonic cleaning.

 

My small one was also quite weak in power having only one central transducer.  The big one has at least two. The small one didn't fit reasonable size glass jars, i think steel is better anyway. 

[JohnR725]

Here's an amusing link to frequencies of ultrasonic cleaning. Why is it amusing? The Elma cleaning machine we have at work uses both  40 And 80 khz. The amusing aspect would be when you look at the advantages of the various frequencies for the most part they all look really good. Then you look at the disadvantage and? like for the lowest frequency of the Elm a machine that we have is a reference to delicate components but I don't think the watch actually is classified as delicate. We might classified as such but I think their thinking of something else perhaps. What does become interesting when you look at the various frequencies would be if you could have variable frequencies would probably be much better but that introduces all sorts of interesting problems.

https://crest-ultrasonics.com/choosing-the-right-ultrasonic-frequency-for-effective-industrial-cleaning/

 

[mikepilk]

That is a little narrow. I bought a 1.3L where the basket is about 12cm x 13cm.  It's 60W at 40kHZ and cleans well.

I use 400ml beakers - one sits nicely in the middle. 

[spectre6000]

I might have a solution to the solution creep issue: ONLY put clean tap water in the US, and put the various solutions in small jars with lids on them. Seal up the jars and empty/clean/dry the US at the end of every day (it's just water). I've never experienced/noticed any creep, but anything that did happen to get out would immediately be diluted beyond notice. I have one of the SS Chinese 3L models. I use it for things other than watches too, so I got the big one. Helps also that I can get three of my little solution jars in there at the same time, which is nice for my cleaning process (I keep parts separated by system through the process to make it easier to get things back together). The big guy also has multiple transducers, none of which have detached on me so far after 5 years or so of casual use. At this point in my watchmaking hobby, there are a number of tools I'd really like to invest in/upgrade. The only upgrade I can think of that I have any desire to do on the cleaning side is figure out a way to make the US quieter/less obnoxious.

Another upgrade occurred to me while I was sitting here typing this: I have an 8 month old baby (in a few days), and if those tiny baby food jars will fit a typical main plate through the opening, they'd be even better for cleaning than the small mason jars I've been using... I can fit three mason jars in the US, which is 3/4 of my cleaning process. I could probably fit five or six of the little baby food jars in there though, and that may allow me to really speed up that aspect of the service process! Every time I put one in the recycle bucket it pings my "this seems useful" sense, but then immediately also triggers the hoarder alarm. Now I have a good excuse to set a few aside without feeling like I'm just adding to my clutter!

Edited February 27 by spectre6000

[RichardHarris123]

18 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

will fit a typical main plate through the opening

it the opening is tight, it can be a pain to get the plate back out. 

[SwissSeiko]

30 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

 I have an 8 month old baby 

When you start buying the jarred peaches from costco, those glass jars are also great for watch repair

[VWatchie]

21 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I have an 8 month old baby (in a few days)

Fantastic! Best of luck! Nothing greater in life than becoming a parent! 

[spectre6000]

23 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

When you start buying the jarred peaches from costco, those glass jars are also great for watch repair

I was at Costco yesterday. Haven't noticed the jarred peaches you're talking about, but I did see some rice pudding in little glass jars that had my attention. Slightly larger than the baby food jars, and twice as tall. They had pressed on foil instead of lids though, so I wouldn't be able to keep the cleaning solution in them. I passed. The only jarred peaches I've seen (and have in the pantry) are in a giant jar a good 10" high and at least 6" diameter. It's only watchmaking application would be to store the stripped plates of the many movements I've ruined!

23 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

it the opening is tight, it can be a pain to get the plate back out. 

Ooh... Good point. I don't think any have made it through the dishwasher since my realization 24 hours ago, but I'll be sure to verify that. I did load a 12 pack into the pantry last night, so I'll have plenty one way or the other.

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Fantastic! Best of luck! Nothing greater in life than becoming a parent! 

Thanks! #2 has been WAY easier than #1. None of the health issues and no pandemic to make them worse/more stressful. Just a happy squeally baby boy! Yesterday he hit a milestone in that is officially fully mobile. He can make himself be anywhere in the house at will (below knee height). He finally figured out all the transitions between laying down, sitting, crawling, standing, and walking (along the furniture). We thought we were baby proofed, but it seems that's a moving goal post with a 5yo sister and all her leavings to chase. Nothing is safe!