Timegrapher won't read my Felsa 1560 and I don't know where to start to fix it!

[Jessye]

I bought a cheap watch at an estate sale that has a Felsa 1560, it was running but was not great so I decided it was time for a clean up.  I didn't get a reading before I did the tear down so I have nothing to compare to but once reassembled and oiled my timegrapher won't provide a reading for more than about 15-20 seconds and I'm not sure what to make of the dot patterns.  It's running but I can clearly see that the amplitude is low by how slow the balance is swinging and that when you can't get a reading something is wrong.  But I have no idea what or where to start to troubleshoot.   

I've included some photos of what the timegrapher will produce before resetting as well as some pictures of my balance.  Sorry if the photos aren't great, but those are hard photos to take!  It feels like it's in the hairspring which terrifies me as I am a certified and highly skilled hairspring destroyer, so I don’t want to go near it if I don’t have to.  The spring and balance wheel are turning freely and not rubbing against each other or the main plate.   

I'm sure I'm not providing a lot of information needed but I am new to this so I'm not sure what else to ask or provide.  I’ve checked my timegrapher with some of my other watches I wear regularly, and it works.  I’ve also tried placing the movement directly into the microphone as I’ve read that some movement holders can block the sound. 

 

 

[mbwatch]

Hi there - 

Time to start troubleshooting individual function groups of the watch.

First test: remove the balance and pallet fork. If you apply a little wind to the mainspring, does the train spin very freely and stop with a little bit of recoil back the other way? That would indicate your train is clean enough and no pivots damaged (plus other potential issues). Lack of recoil isn't necessarily a bad problem, but if the escape wheel stops suddenly then there is probably an issue. And if the train is sluggish to stop and sort of sputters along once the wind is nearly out, then you have some friction in the train that needs attention.

Second test: install the balance but do not install the pallet fork. Turn the balance 180° and let it go, allowing it to oscillate freely. You should be able to count around 100 oscillations, indicating that the balance is free enough. If it doesn't swing for very long, you need to examine balance pivots and the balance jewel lubrication. There are other potential faults here too, end shake, hairspring touching something (though your photo looks pretty good)

[Nucejoe]

  Let see timegrapher reading in FU position as well. 

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by Nucejoe

[HectorLooi]

39 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

  Let see timegrapher reading in FU position as well. 

 

Haha. There is a reason why we use DU  instead of FU, Joe.

[mbwatch]

Oh wait a minute. In your photo from the underside of the balance, the impulse jewel is aligned with the regulator, roughly. But in the assembled photos it looks like the regulator is far to the right of the pallet arbor jewels and escape jewels. Unless this is photo parallax lying to me, it would put your impulse jewel miles out of alignment and out of beat. In that state it might run a little bit the timegrapher will not make any sense until it is closer to in beat.

Can you move the stud carrier arm back toward the outside? I can't tell for sure that this is a movable stud carrier, you might have to turn the hairspring collet a good distance. Clockwise, at least 15° unless the photo plays geometry tricks.

If you install the balance without the pallet fork, can you see the ruby impulse jewel between the banking pins? It needs to be dead center between them.

The green line is where your impulse jewel should align, the red is where I think it actually lands right now. If you can turn the collet clockwise, it will move the impulse jewel's resting position counter clockwise

Edited December 18, 2024 by mbwatch

[GPrideaux]

8 hours ago, Jessye said:

Sorry if the photos aren't great

The photos ARE great. Some of the best I've seen.

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Haha. There is a reason why we use DU  instead of FU, Joe.

 Lower balance pivot is short compared to the upper, so pivot shoulder might rub on chaton.

As shown, shock spring on cock side should be checked.

On half serious side Hector, skeleton, faceless watches are popular nowadays.

Edited December 18, 2024 by Nucejoe
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[nevenbekriev]

There is no movable stud carrier here, but actually the pictures show that the impulse jewel is not so far away from the correct position.

The timegrapher shows that frequency is far from what it should be, but it is not possible to say if it is faster or slower. So, the hairspring may be not free, or it could be wrong hairspring. That's why I would wait for the free oscillations test and it would be best to see a video of it.

[Jessye]

On 12/17/2024 at 1:11 PM, mbwatch said:

Hi there - 

Time to start troubleshooting individual function groups of the watch.

First test: remove the balance and pallet fork. If you apply a little wind to the mainspring, does the train spin very freely and stop with a little bit of recoil back the other way? That would indicate your train is clean enough and no pivots damaged (plus other potential issues). Lack of recoil isn't necessarily a bad problem, but if the escape wheel stops suddenly then there is probably an issue. And if the train is sluggish to stop and sort of sputters along once the wind is nearly out, then you have some friction in the train that needs attention.

Second test: install the balance but do not install the pallet fork. Turn the balance 180° and let it go, allowing it to oscillate freely. You should be able to count around 100 oscillations, indicating that the balance is free enough. If it doesn't swing for very long, you need to examine balance pivots and the balance jewel lubrication. There are other potential faults here too, end shake, hairspring touching something (though your photo looks pretty good)

Ok so I did what you suggested and here is what I found:

I removed the pallet fork and gave the balance a small puff of air and it happily swung freely for more than a minute before stopping so I would say the balance is ok. 

I removed the balance and gave the watch a wind and the train wheels all spun freely and stops when I stop the wind.  So in the process of elimination I am thinking I now need to move onto the pallet fork?  I checked the pivots and  the jewels and all seem well.  

On 12/17/2024 at 3:35 PM, Nucejoe said:

  Let see timegrapher reading in FU position as well. 

 

I realized that I forgot to demagnetize before I did my reading.  I did have a slight gain in amplitude and beat error but the timegrapher still cuts out after 15-20 seconds.  

Below is the photo of the movement "FU"  .  I honestly don't know how much of a variance in the different positions is acceptable but pretty sure this isn't

Edited December 20, 2024 by Jessye
spelling

[mbwatch]

2 minutes ago, Jessye said:

all spun freely and stops when I stop the wind

More picky specifics here... Did the train stop when you stopped applying the wind, or did the train run down all the way once you stop applying wind, gradually stop, and then bounce back a little into the opposite direction?

It does sound like your balance is good and free. There are now more advanced things that could cause serious amplitude issues, like locking depth of the pallet stones (if they are out of place or the wrong stones were installed)

Also have a look at the position of the impulse jewel. With the pallet fork removed, and you might also need to remove the train depending on the mainplate's sight lines, hold it eye-level and look directly down the line from the escape wheel jewel, through the pallet arbor pivot jewel, through the banking pins, to the balance staff. Sighting directly down that line from escape to balance staff, the red impulse jewel should be visible as near to center between the banking pins as possible. If the impulse jewel is from from centered rest, then that is the next thing to correct.

 

[Nucejoe]

On 12/18/2024 at 2:46 AM, HectorLooi said:

Haha. There is a reason why we use DU  instead of FU, Joe.

Haha,

Must admit thats a good one Hector.  Will be more careful composing.

3 hours ago, Jessye said:

Below is the photo of the movement "FU"  .  I honestly don't know how much of a variance in the different positions is acceptable but pretty sure this isn't

 My initial suspect was worn pivot to a point thats too short to reach the relevent end stone. Doesn't look I was right.

Your timegrapher can't identify the beat its hearing.

Hairspring looks out of flat near the stud end of terminal curve, so this end section can rub on balance spokes in DU position and barely miss the spoke in DD position.  

The stud too looks it need an adjust to get a flat and level hairspring coil.

I check , if impulse pin is loose, insufficient end play on  fork pivots, dirty or worn jewels to the fork staff, heavy pallet lock on escape teeth, fork horn rubbing on roller table, guard pin out of adjust. 

Rgds

 

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Jessye said:

removed the pallet fork and gave the balance a small puff of air and it happily swung freely for more than a minute before stopping so I would say the balance is

Its a good test for free balance, better still when performed in other  positions as well.

[Jessye]

I'm not giving up as you don't learn that way but I did a search on eBay for a Felsa 1560 hairspring and the examples I found are not the same as mine.  The spring right before the stud makes a distinct bend and mine does not, could this be part of my issue? I've attached the springs I found as well as another pic of mine

[nevenbekriev]

We need some more information to be able to say what is wrong. First, we need to know if the amplitude is normal. You have put a dot on the balance rim already, so what is the amplitude? (I don't ask what timegrapher shows, I see it but I need to know actual amplitude. We need to know if there is difference between amplitudes DU/DD. And, in case the amplitude is more or less normal, we need to know what the rate is. Again, don't care what the timegrapher shows, we need actual rate. This means to put the hands (at least the minute one) and check.

You spring looks OK. Don't say it is perfect, but at least the outer curve shape should not be the reason for what happens.

[Jessye]

Merry Christmas and Happy New year!

I've done some additional troubleshooting and did a rate check as recommended and here's what I found:

1st - after viewing every jewel under my new microscope ( thanks Santa) I found that the bottom cap jewel looks "chewed up" for lack of a better description.  The rim is flared out and jagged compared to nice and circular and smooth.  I was able to source a donor and replace the cap jewel but I still get the same readings or lack there of on the timegrapher (photo below). The lower balance pivot checked out ok.  Has anyone seen this before? What would cause that? 

2nd - I gave it a full wind, set the hands and let it run for 24 hours, I was only planning on an hour but I forgot, darn eggnog. The watch is loosing 56 minutes a day. At this point if it was keeping decent time I would just go with it but that's too much.  It does help explain why the timegrapher won't provide a rate, I don't believe it reports that high!

I was able to put the bend by the stud back quite easily, thank goodness for metal memory and I did make a slight gain in amplitude ( around 175-180) but nothing else.  

I sat and watched it run for a bit both before I readjusted the curve to the stud and after and to my inexperienced eyes something doesn't seem quite right compared to others I have watched.  It doesn't seem to smoothy or evenly "breathe".  I can't upload video files but what I see is that on one side the spacing for the spring coils are much closer than the other side but when I look at the balance off the movement it looks ok-ish.   As I mentioned earlier I am the destroyer of all things spring, just correcting the stud bend aged me horribly so if my eyes aren't deceiving me this poor thing may be banished to my "someday" box.  Someday I'll have the experience to adjust the spring or find a reasonably priced replacement.  The ones I can source now with Canada's weak dollar don't seem worth it.  

[mbwatch]

I would guess that your chewed up cap jewel had the jewel replaced in its setting at some point, and just not very cleanly. Jewels like these are burnished into place by rubbing a thin brass lip over the beveled edge of the jewel (as opposed to friction fit in like more modern jewels, post 1920s). The rough rim you are finding was probably a replacement burnish job that just didn't come out as smoothly as factory.

No shame in setting it aside until you have more tools & experience. This reminds me I have a couple of early "somedays" whose time has probably come.

[nevenbekriev]

@Jessye, what You say confirms my suggestions. The real rate is much off than timegrapher can accept and calculate.

Now, we need to know if this is the original hairspring for the balance. It is quite possible that someone has replaced the hairspring with one from another balance... What You need to do is use timer to count the free oscillations for exactly 1 minute. The balance must hang on the hairspring (You hold the cock with tweezers) while the downside tip is resting on glass. In this condition the hairspring for sure will be free and not touching anywhere, so errors from hairspring imperfection are avoided. Then You must make the balance oscillate and watch the timer and count. You balance must make 150 oscillations/minute. 149 means the watch will loose about 10 min / 24H.

The way to show video here is to upload it in Youtube and paste the link in the message.