Alpina old Pocket Watch - Which movement and balance staff Number ?

[hofnerpres]

Need help with a head scratcher here. Using the movement pictures on Ranfft and the 0.800 silver markings on the case I think we are looking at a mid 1920s Alpina

 

 

The Base plate diameter is 41.6 mm . The nearest I can get to on Ranfft is a 3335 shown below :

 

Now it gets interesting. It needs a new balance shaft and I seem to have wandered into the Ronda Valley of Doom. The listings in the old Ronda tables show Alpina staffs for the 3335 and the variant 3335 28/12. Neither staff is correct and all the other Alpine listings are also quite different. I don't normally do pocket watches because of the parts availability challenge - already had to make a new setting lever. Using the Ronda lettering system we're looking for Length A 4.22  B 2.10  J 1.26  K 0.83  Roller fitting G is 0.50. Probably an easy answer but the answer seems elusive...

[AndyGSi]

42 minutes ago, hofnerpres said:

The Base plate diameter is 41.6 mm . The nearest I can get to on Ranfft is a 3335 shown below :

What does the dial side measure as it looks more like the bridges on a 410 and expect it's a 19"?

[hofnerpres]

Hi Andy. The 42.6 is the dial side - 19 ligne would be 42.86 mm but close enough so that was also my assumption. I have a packet of stems for these and they are different. Much too long and fat on the roller stem. Spec here

A B and G wrong. We need 422 , 210 and 50. The closest I could find are Ronda 15 and 16 - Marked for Alpina but not my movement - whatever it is. The staff is removed and does not look machined on a lathe. It has that factory slightly dull finish. Would be a real challenge to make one but no lathe in my toy set. I even went through every page of the Ronda book just looking for a size match lurking under another make and caliber just on the off chance that the balance was a clever non OEM replacement. Two hours of pure fun. No Joy. Very odd.

 

[AndyGSi]

If it needs a new staff I presume the A-422 & B-210 are estimated due to broken pivots but the G-50 is measured?

What have you used for these measurements for accuracy?

Edit

The click looks like the 19" while the bridges look like the 400s.

From your measurements I think this is about the closest with A-440 & B-228

https://urdelar.se/products/alpina-409-19-balance-staff-dcn-2186

Edited December 18, 2024 by AndyGSi

[hofnerpres]

Thanks Andy. So The Ronda and DCN staffs for this movement are nearly the same but the Roller shaft thickness is way out - 60 vs 52. That's confusing enough and might be encouraging if it were not for the length. They are both too long at over 440. We have a  Ronda 15 in place as a trial fit - it's 445 and clearly way too long. As you say the total length and therefore the B measurement had to be estimated but 422  looks about right. I'm using a well proven micrometer and vernier gauges.  Couple of pictures here from my dreadful Amscope camera via the otherwise excellent microscope. We're looking at a 445 long Ronda 2935 labelled as correct for the 19 ligne 409, 410 etc. next to the broken correct shaft. That roller bearing bottom half is way too long by about 020. Guestimate the top section and that looks correct. Hence my money is on the 422 total length. The only close candidate for that is the Ronda 16 and DCN 1365 listed for the 3335 28/12 Alpina - both up the creek on the balance wheel and balance spring fitting diameters.  Worthy challenge eh ? Neil.

 

 

 

[AndyGSi]

I presume you've not got a lathe to just repivot it?

[hofnerpres]

Sadly not Andy. This is an out of control retirement hobby and my house and shed is already full of Model Railways, RC Aircraft etc. You have to stop somewhere and I'm content to be a decent service and repair guy - this is proper watchmaking which is why I normally stick to post war wrist watch work. The frustration is it looks factory standard but seems unlisted. Thanks for looking. 

[AndyGSi]

What about the Ronda 11 for the 337?

The thing with yours that's confusing me is the click which I can't see anything like on Alpinas

Edit

So going back to my post above for the 19" H5.6 the click is a match to yours but the bridges are different.

Strictly this is not Alpina and Union Horlogère SA but Ranfft shows this as a Flume 1873 Staff.

@Neverenoughwatches Now to find someone with a Flume Staff Catalogue to confirm the size?

Edited December 19, 2024 by AndyGSi

[Neverenoughwatches]

I'll see what I can dig up. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Flume book shows the staff as a flume 1872. Heres the staff dimensions, numbered rather than lettered, from 1 to 4 in order of listed size sequence 

In sequence order of listed size even . You know you want those books Andy , you just know you do ...they're still available. 

Side by side comparison,  I'm just too good to people, earning my browie points for the day of reckoning

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[tomh207]

At the apparent going rate of nearly 500 quid I’ll just nag you to look stuff up for me Rich

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

At the apparent going rate of nearly 500 quid I’ll just nag you to look stuff up for me Rich

 

Tom

Whats 500 quid Tom ?

Flume and Ronda conflict withthe 410 as well ?

By quite a lot as it happens especially the roller size.

[SwissSeiko]

20 hours ago, hofnerpres said:

Sadly not Andy. This is an out of control retirement hobby and my house and shed is already full of Model Railways, RC Aircraft etc. You have to stop somewhere and I'm content to be a decent service and repair guy - this is proper watchmaking which is why I normally stick to post war wrist watch work. The frustration is it looks factory standard but seems unlisted. Thanks for looking. 

The good news is 8mm lathes take up very little space. And if you are doing model trains and RC stuff, it sure would be handy to be able to make parts for those...

[tomh207]

The flume books on eBay and Amazon Rich

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Flume book shows the staff as a flume 1872. Heres the staff dimensions, numbered rather than lettered, from 1 to 4 in order of listed size sequence 

In sequence order of listed size even . You know you want those books Andy , you just know you do ...they're still available. 

Side by side comparison,  I'm just too good to people, earning my browie points for the day of reckoning

 

Thanks for this but the OP is looking for the dimensions of the 1873 staff as he already knows the Alpina 409 staff is too long.

[praezis]

3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

At the apparent going rate of nearly 500 quid I’ll just nag you to look stuff up for me

I always wonder where you find such fantastic numbers. Here those books go for low 2-digit prices.

[tomh207]

Just now, praezis said:

I always wonder where you find such fantastic numbers. Here those books go for low 2-digit prices.

Do you have a link perchance Frank? Pretty much anything watch related in the UK at the moment are somewhat “ambitious “

 

Tom

[praezis]

Better look on the German site.

Frank

[nevenbekriev]

Here You can search all the data base by dimensions A or B. For example, I have entered for B 210 and I see all results. There is staff there for Helvetia 32 which has A=422, it is good with all other dimensions but K, which is 90. Of course, the pivot size is something that is not listed.

Do You know how to measure the needed A dimension from the movement?

[AndyGSi]

On 12/19/2024 at 5:28 PM, hofnerpres said:

Thanks Andy. So The Ronda and DCN staffs for this movement are nearly the same but the Roller shaft thickness is way out - 60 vs 52. That's confusing enough and might be encouraging if it were not for the length. They are both too long at over 440. We have a  Ronda 15 in place as a trial fit - it's 445 and clearly way too long. As you say the total length and therefore the B measurement had to be estimated but 422  looks about right. I'm using a well proven micrometer and vernier gauges.  Couple of pictures here from my dreadful Amscope camera via the otherwise excellent microscope. We're looking at a 445 long Ronda 2935 labelled as correct for the 19 ligne 409, 410 etc. next to the broken correct shaft. That roller bearing bottom half is way too long by about 020. Guestimate the top section and that looks correct. Hence my money is on the 422 total length. The only close candidate for that is the Ronda 16 and DCN 1365 listed for the 3335 28/12 Alpina - both up the creek on the balance wheel and balance spring fitting diameters.  Worthy challenge eh ? Neil.

 

 

 

Just having another look at your photos and one pivot looks OK so everything should be measurable apart from the A?

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

The flume books on eBay and Amazon Rich

 

Tom

I think someone is being way way too optimistic with that Tom.  Andy has the details of a set of book 1 and 2 going for 40 quid

On 12/19/2024 at 5:28 PM, hofnerpres said:

Thanks Andy. So The Ronda and DCN staffs for this movement are nearly the same but the Roller shaft thickness is way out - 60 vs 52. That's confusing enough and might be encouraging if it were not for the length. They are both too long at over 440. We have a  Ronda 15 in place as a trial fit - it's 445 and clearly way too long. As you say the total length and therefore the B measurement had to be estimated but 422  looks about right. I'm using a well proven micrometer and vernier gauges.  Couple of pictures here from my dreadful Amscope camera via the otherwise excellent microscope. We're looking at a 445 long Ronda 2935 labelled as correct for the 19 ligne 409, 410 etc. next to the broken correct shaft. That roller bearing bottom half is way too long by about 020. Guestimate the top section and that looks correct. Hence my money is on the 422 total length. The only close candidate for that is the Ronda 16 and DCN 1365 listed for the 3335 28/12 Alpina - both up the creek on the balance wheel and balance spring fitting diameters.  Worthy challenge eh ? Neil.

 

 

 

Just a plain old thought Mister, but how about measuring the stem to varify the movement's identity 

Edited December 20, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[Neverenoughwatches]

Ok so who bought the Flume books then,own up Andy or Tom ?

They sold 2 hours ago, thats no coincidence

[tomh207]

It wissnae me! A big boy musta dun it an’ ran away mister.

 

I didn’t know where they were Rich and didn’t even look as I thought Andy had first dibs.

@Neverenoughwatches

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, tomh207 said:

It wissnae me! A big boy musta dun it an’ ran away mister.

 

I didn’t know where they were Rich and didn’t even look as I thought Andy had first dibs.

@Neverenoughwatches

 

Tom

He kinda did , I told Andy about them a couple of weeks ago as I knew he was looking for them. Not a bad price either , they do come up fairly regularly. I'll keep an eye out for any more and let you know if I see em.

[tomh207]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

He kinda did , I told Andy about them a couple of weeks ago as I knew he was looking for them. Not a bad price either , they do come up fairly regularly. I'll keep an eye out for any more and let you know if I see em.

That’s cool, thanks Rich. I just got two of Jendritzki’s books, really like the style.

 

Tom