A press is a press is a press?

[linux]

So I'm at the point in my hobby with i want to commit to a good quality crystal press, and if possible qty 1.  Like I'm sure most in this hobby I started by buying an el cheapo, in this case from Harbor Freight for I think about $10.  (For those of you not in the US HF is a tool store chain that sells tools new at steep discount, like 20% of a name brand version.  Think a Bosch roto-hammer that would cost $1000 HF would charge $250.  It would be Chinese of course and would probably work fine but not last.  They're pretty successful.  But the press turned out to be junk...

Anyway, I want to go non-Chinese and the three I have as candidates are the Bergeon 6173, Bergeon 5500 and the Robur.  The reason that I have the Robur in the mix is that Marshall on wristwatch revival youtube channel bought one and when I see camera shots of his equipment it's clear that he buys the best without regard to cost.  I like the look of the Robur and I believed that a screw press should be the strongest (since I've read at least one comment that says a lever press is the strongest...)

I guess i have a couple questions I'd like some help on:

1. Of the three what do people think about these choices?

2. And this I'm still confused on: Can you just buy one press for any and all applications of crystal pressing and removing (and casebacks of course)?  I would think that if a press is strong enough and true AND you can get all the dies you need to fit it then you should only need one.  The reason I ask is that a member on another forum said that in his opinion you need two, and he recommended the two Bergeons I listed.  He seemed like he had experience and I think his point is that some crystals are very difficult except on the 6173.  I also recall another commenter saying that he had several presses but on occasion had to take project to a local watchmaker friend who owned a 6173 and it always came through.

The "what dies will you need" is still a bit confusing for me and is one of the reservations I have about the Robur vs the Bergeons M6 standard that has a "lot" of choices for dies.  I guess you could buy an adapter for the Robur.  The 6173 does not come with dies whereas the 5500 comes with 31 or so, including domed dies.  I know a complete set of dies is pricey for either Bergeon or Robur so I'll probably start small if I can.

Anyway, sorry about the long post and I hope this subject is not worn out.  What do you guys think?

[caseback]

Any type of press being stronger then the other is not an issue. All are easily strong enough to crack any crystal.

I can only give you my preference. I know that several people on this forum like the bergeon 5500 over the robur. Not me though. I still have the bergeon but in fact never use it.

I use the robur for crystals that you need to bend a bit to get them in or out. I like the amount of control the robur provides and the fact that it allows you to have both hands free. Increase pressure a bit, check if the crystal fits, increase a little bit more if needed, etc. I can creep up to the correct fit which I especially like when using older crystals. I feel they crack easier then fresh new ones, but I may very well be wrong on that. But again, several forum members (probably way more experienced than me) prefer the bergeon. 

For pressing in crystals with tension rings, "glass" crystals and the occasional caseback, I use an A&F (?) screwdown press and a bunch of plastic dies.

I can't imagine ever needing the amount of force the 6173 can provide for fitting or removing crystals.

Edited December 25, 2024 by caseback
Typo

[RichardHarris123]

Why don't you use the Robur for armoured/ glass crystals? 

[caseback]

31 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Why don't you use the Robur for armoured/ glass crystals? 

2 reasons: 

1) I already had the A&F before I got the robur and I like how it works/performs.

2) the robur originally came with bakelite dies I don't want to risk damaging.

Only later I got some additional aluminium dies for the robur as well, so yes I could use it for armoured/glass crystals now.

[Neverenoughwatches]

As Case suggests, the strenth of a press unless it is something so cheap is irrelevant, strength beyond breaking a crystal is pointless and all presses are capable of breaking a crystal. The important bit for the press is accuracy of the die alignment and of course the actual dies. I posted something a few weeks ago regarding the die shapes and the comparisons between various brands. I own 5 screw presses 3 of which have dies that work on the same principle as the robur dies. So Robur is about die alignment and the quantity of dies in their sets to bend crystals, and not particularly the quality of dies, I've seen so many broken ones. The screw presses I have, have no broken dies. Haha sounds like a rag on robur, its just a press, but I do like the fact that there lots of sizes of dies that you dont get with other brands, except for one that I can think of. To answer Richard's question - why not use the Robur to fit armoured crystals ? -  actually no reason at all, except not to use a domed die to bend it, the ring prevents that. But in actual fact only to a degree, I bent one enough the other day to push it out and  back in again, so there is a very small amount of flex but it may compress the ring and reduce it's effectiveness. 

Then there is the option of making your own wooden dies, to any shape you desire. I've only just bought some felt the other day to line the domes and cups that i will make. 

[linux]

Thanks for the input guys; I appreciate it.  So I guess I'm hearing or inferring several things.

1. For "good" presses, if you have access to all the dies you would need, and they can be installed on the press, any one will do.

2. Most watchmakers use more than one press.  That comes from reading a lot of forum threads on this topic.  Even though everybody has a preference, I've not yet heard anyone say they only use one press.  Maybe its because over time people tend to collect several presses and then use different presses for different crystal types.

Here's the pro's/cons of the three candidates I've selected.  (being a retired nerd engineer I put this all on a spreadsheet of course but I'll spare you all that )

6173 - Pros: Uber strong, no bad words about it, compatible with all Bergeon dies.   Cons: Very expensive AND does not come with dies

5500 - Pros: Good reputation, comes with 31 dies    Cons:  also expensive but less so than the 6173 (and that includes the dies)

These two use the more or less standardized M6 mounting studs and can utilize a plethora of Bergeon dies plus other that conform to M6.

Robur - Pros: Strong, 2 hand operation, reasonably priced, at least compared to the Bergeons.   Cons: Dies are extra and expensive; no M6 studs

 

It goes without saying that quality Swiss and French presses will cost more than anything from China.  For example the Chinese of the 6173 is about 1/10 of the real deal, but that's another thread.  Here are the current prices from my spreadsheet.  These are dollars, delivered the US incl tax and shipping.  The Bergeon stuff is mostly from Jules Borel Co and the Robur is from Cousins (I can't find any USA watch supply house that carries Robur).

6173 - $894, no dies

5500 - $769, INCL a full set of dies

Robur - $255, no dies

Robur + Robur dies - $675

So the 6173 with a compliment of good dies will be around $1300 give or take, way too expensive for most tastes, mine included.  However every comment I've seen about the 6173 has been super positive and one commenter said they used that model in a watchmaker's school.

Form the cost breakout then, I'd focus in on either the 5500 or Robur.  Not having used either one I'd probably tend toward the Robur unless I was convinced that there was some operations it could not do or some dies that may not be compatible.  I know that ebay sells a nice looking adapter that converts it to the M6 attachment that may open to door the any Bergeon die or dies from other manufacturers that conform to M6.

 

 

[GuyMontag]

Don't forget about the Bergeon 8250, it's also less expensive than the others you listed.

[linux]

Re: the A&F, it's on clearance at Cousins for £99.95 (normal price is £265.95) which seems like a good price if it's capable.  It does look solid.

27 minutes ago, GuyMontag said:

Don't forget about the Bergeon 8250, it's also less expensive than the others you listed.

Yes, thanks for reminding me.  I just came across that product recently and it looks like it's a fairly new press in the Bergeon line.  It reminds me of the Robur of course, same style.  It has the advantage of being directly compatible with the Bergeon dies, etc but does cost nearly $300 more than the Robur.  Like the Robur it does not come with any dies.  I'll have to do some research on it.  Do you have one?

Edited December 26, 2024 by linux
update

[GuyMontag]

Yes, I have the 8250, I really like it. I paid about $360 for mine. I bought the dies from Aliexpress.

[linux]

Just now, GuyMontag said:

Yes, I have the 8250, I really like it. I paid about $360 for mine. I bought the dies from Aliexpress.

Any idea how it compares to the Robur?  I'm sort of a newbie to presses so far but learning.  Have you purchased any domed dies for pressing acrylic crystals that are domed?  That's sort of a side-question that just occured to me as I'm wondering what those are made of besides bakelite.  I know that @Neverenoughwatches is experimenting with wood domed dies which is interesting.

[GuyMontag]

I don't have any experience with the robor but the two seem to operate similarly, just with different ways to attach the dies. I was initially looking at the Robur but decided on the Bergeon as the M6 dies are cheap and easy to find.  I did pick up some of the domed dies, Bergeon has some which you can buy individually or as a set. I bought the 6, 7, and 8 size but have never needed anything other than the size 7 (BERG-5500-07 ). Having said that, I mostly only use the Bergeon claw tool for acrylic crystals. I really don't like the 'jig' that comes with the claw tool but after I picked up a Seiko S-14 crystal tool for monocoque cases which comes with a much better 'jig', I now pretty much only use that with the Bergeon claw tool for acrylic crystals. The S-14 jig is designed such that the claw tool grabs the crystal slightly higher, this keeps the claw tool away from the case when inserting the crystal and also just makes it much easier to install the crystal. I would routinely have issues seating a crystal with the claw tool when using the Bergeon supplied jig but haven't once had an issue when I use the S-14 jig.

I bought two die sets from Aliexpress and they both are excellent. I use this one to insert armored crystals and this one when I'm removing the armored crystal from the case or pressing on bezels. I did buy another really cheap nylon die set from Aliexpress but it was trash and I never use it. I have not yet scratched a crystal (knock on wood) using the aluminum dies.

I know you said you want to avoid a Chinese made press, but maybe investigate this one and see what folks say. It looks like a (almost) clone of the Bergeon 8250 for about $90 plus shipping.

 

Edited December 26, 2024 by GuyMontag

[caseback]

5 hours ago, linux said:

Have you purchased any domed dies for pressing acrylic crystals that are domed?  That's sort of a side-question that just occured to me as I'm wondering what those are made of besides bakelite. 

Robur set with aluminium dies:

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, linux said:

Any idea how it compares to the Robur?  I'm sort of a newbie to presses so far but learning.  Have you purchased any domed dies for pressing acrylic crystals that are domed?  That's sort of a side-question that just occured to me as I'm wondering what those are made of besides bakelite.  I know that @Neverenoughwatches is experimenting with wood domed dies which is interesting.

The robur domed dies are bakelite, i think possibly with a felt covering. 1 of my presses has a type of bakelite  domed dies, very tough, I have two and a half sets of these with none broken. The other two presses use rubber faced onto bakelite. The plan is to make a few more inbetween sizes of the domes out of timber, probably oak or another hardwood I might have kicking around and cover the tops with felt. The cup dies should be checked regularly for damage, fine nicks or marks that could transfer onto the crystal, a good idea would be a thin layer of polythene to protect them. 

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

The robur domed dies are bakelite, i think possibly with a felt covering. 

If Case can confirm the felt please.

Then there are also the other crystal lift claw tools mentioned, useful for when a press can't be used as in the case of front loading crystals . Bergeon's claw tool, two standard models available not inc.the Lilliput for teeny crystals, one that accommodates rounds and shapes and the round lift that uses adapters to remove shapes with two platform heights for standard and high dome crystals.  Yet another version of a lifting claw, is   USA crystal lift tool ?  that works similarly but a bit differently . Robur also made crystal pinching pliers that use different sizes of steel compression clamps. Being the "crystal tool king " I have both those tools as well

[caseback]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

If Case can confirm the felt please.

Confirmed! 

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, caseback said:

Confirmed! 

Thanks Case, i was guessing...it just looked like felt to me. I started to think very briefly why the cup dies are not felt lined ? I figured maybe it interferes too much with the crystal bending and entry into the case.

[RichardHarris123]

The felt could get trapped between the crystal and case. 

[caseback]

31 minutes ago, caseback said:

Confirmed! 

Also by Robur themselves as well

 

21 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks Case, i was guessing...it just looked like felt to me. I started to think very briefly why the cup dies are not felt lined ? I figured maybe it interferes too much with the crystal bending and entry into the case.

My guess is that it's because the biggest contact surface/potential rubbing/pressure is on the domed dies.

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, caseback said:

Also by Robur themselves as well

 

My guess is that it's because the biggest contact surface/potential rubbing/pressure is on the domed dies.

 

 

I read the instructions  earlier on your box Case also screenshot them for future reference to help answering beginners questions. 

That inner curve of the cup dies obviously may need periodic maintenance, though with care you wouldn't expect them to damage at all.

[linux]

I've agonized over this decision long enough.  After reaching out to several more people who have Robur presses and asking how they like it, I just ordered the press and die set on Cousins.  Thanks all for you input.

18 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

...I bought two die sets from Aliexpress and they both are excellent. I use this one to insert armored crystals and this one when I'm removing the armored crystal from the case or pressing on bezels. I did buy another really cheap nylon die set from Aliexpress but it was trash and I never use it. I have not yet scratched a crystal (knock on wood) using the aluminum dies...


 

I may opt for one or both of these sets as a backup.  Compared to the Bergeon set they're very cheap.  Did you confirm that they have M6 threads?  I ordered the M6 adapter for the Robur press on ebay.

[GuyMontag]

Yes, they are M6 threaded.

[linux]

Thank you.