New movement for discusion! From Qte Salter

[Janis]

Greetings Watchmakers!

I must ask not so much of identification of movement, but first asking if it even possible to fix this movement.

To give optimal verdict, problems with it are written here:

1. Movement was broken out of case. Dented case in one point. Movement still sits fine in it. 

2.Dented balance wheel

3. Balance wheel missing rubie

4. Pallet fork stem with broken pivot

5. Missing parts in key less mechanism

6. Missing intermittent gear to canon pinon

7. Missing minute and second arms. 

8. Back side missing crystal. 

Although all problems (without maintenance and maybe main spring) are known, i wasn't able to find for 100% a manufacturer for this movement. 

Or caliber for that matter. Closest for my opinion are FHF or AS movements. Size 12s, 19 rubies, Balance wheel sits in bottom part, in opposite site of winding stem. 

Sorry for bad image quality. I know that daylight should be better. 

 

Knowing that, is there way to find parts for fixing this movement or should I put it as memorabilia in the drawer? Thanks for any advice.

[nevenbekriev]

I would consider this watch as 'easy fix' This is because usually I work on movements in much worse condition. The only part needed is the minute wheel, it can be found (if one have big collection of minute wheels) or made. The movement is FHF, but parts are not interchangeable, so no point to search for donor. Balance can be straightened, the stone(s) can be replaced, the pallet and balance staffs are routine task.

[mikepilk]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

I would consider this watch as 'easy fix' 

EASY !  This may be an 'easy fix' for a man of Nev's ability (and workshop), but for most it would be a challenge. 

If you could find a donor movement, it would not be difficult. But Nev suggests that this is not possible. 

Unless you want to spend quite a lot on getting it fixed, putting it in a drawer might be the best option.

[caseback]

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

I would consider this watch as 'easy fix' This is because usually I work on movements in much worse condition. The only part needed is the minute wheel, it can be found (if one have big collection of minute wheels) or made. The movement is FHF, but parts are not interchangeable, so no point to search for donor. Balance can be straightened, the stone(s) can be replaced, the pallet and balance staffs are routine task.

Hi Nev. Just out of curiousity: how would you go about straightening the balance wheel? Would you use pliers?

My game plan would be to remove the screws, machine a cone shape with a slot (where the balance wheel arms would fit in), fit the dent balance on it and then gently tap it down until it is snug all around. But, being an engineer, I might be over- engineering it a bit.. Would heat be needed?

Edited December 29, 2024 by caseback

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, caseback said:

Hi Nev. Just out of curiousity: how would you go about straightening the balance wheel? Would you use pliers?

My game plan would be to remove the screws, machine a cone shape with a slot (where the balance wheel arms would fit in), fit the dent balance on it and then gently tap it down until it is snug all around. But, being an engineer, I might be over- engineering it a bit.. Would heat be needed?

What you suggest here Case is the traditional way a jeweler would straighten out or resize a precious metal band ring using a steel mandrel 

[Nucejoe]

I concur with Mike.

Identify the caliber and look for a donor. 

Rgds

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

It be just a matter of not stretching the wheel,  but seems like a sound idea Case

[nevenbekriev]

20 hours ago, caseback said:

Hi Nev. Just out of curiousity: how would you go about straightening the balance wheel? Would you use pliers?

My game plan would be to remove the screws, machine a cone shape with a slot (where the balance wheel arms would fit in), fit the dent balance on it and then gently tap it down until it is snug all around. But, being an engineer, I might be over- engineering it a bit.. Would heat be needed?

Hi Cees,

Actually just pressing with something round from inside against something, may be soft wood, is needed here. The 3 screws where the worst bent place is, need to be removed. Where the screw holes are, this are  weak places, so risk exists for the rim to break, but I have straightened even worse bents. This is matter of luck, and if needed, the balance rim together with the hairspring are to be replaced. It is good for one to have orphan balances collection  from which to choose one with proper size. This balance is bimetallic (steel/brass), but is not cut. I would not heat it, would just hope it will not break

 

[Janis]

So ideally it is fixable. Nice to know. 

Then eBay must be my best friend to look for parts. Or maybe You have some suggestions where to look for parts. BTW. Any ideas to what caliber this movement is? 

And how to fix pallet fork pivot? 

[caseback]

22 minutes ago, Janis said:

And how to fix pallet fork pivot? 

Do you have a lathe?

 

[Janis]

34 minutes ago, caseback said:

Do you have a lathe?

 

Sorry, but i don't have this size lathes. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, caseback said:

Do you have a lathe?

 

This makes me want to break a pallet fork arbour just so I can make one.

[caseback]

11 hours ago, Janis said:

Sorry, but i don't have this size lathes. 

Ah. But now you have the perfect excuse to get one  

Seriously, if you're working on older movements, a lathe will often be needed/handy.

Edited December 31, 2024 by caseback

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 minutes ago, caseback said:

Ah. But now you have the perfect excuse to get one  

Seriously, if you're working on older movements, a lathe will be often be needed/handy.

I can attest to those statements

[mikepilk]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I can attest to those statements

 If only I had room for one 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Come on Mike, we're not talking about this !  yes i know that key in the chuck is an accident waiting to happen

Just this little iddy biddy thing

You know it makes sense, the more of us the merrier,  we can be the " Gentleman's League of Lathers "

[watchweasol]

They are very handy for re pivoting and straightening bent pivots as well. I have got three, one with a dual chuck  which is very handy.

[Janis]

6 hours ago, caseback said:

Ah. But now you have the perfect excuse to get one  

Seriously, if you're working on older movements, a lathe will often be needed/handy.

Seem so. Taking my  shovel an going to eBay for early name day gift.

1K63 metalworking lathe will be to much for fine pivots. 

[tomh207]

2 minutes ago, Janis said:

Seem so. Taking my  shovel an going to eBay for early name day gift.

1K63 metalworking lathe will be to much for fine pivots. 

But maybe good for making tools

 

Tom

[caseback]

50 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

But maybe good for making tools

 

Tom

And I can attest to that 

 

[mbwatch]

On 12/29/2024 at 12:07 PM, mikepilk said:

EASY !  This may be an 'easy fix' for a man of Nev's ability (and workshop), but for most it would be a challenge. 

Right - I have been chuckling about this. It's like Gandalf telling all us hobbits down here in the Shire how easy it is to defeat a Balrog.

[nevenbekriev]

20 hours ago, Janis said:

So ideally it is fixable. Nice to know. 

Then eBay must be my best friend to look for parts. Or maybe You have some suggestions where to look for parts. BTW. Any ideas to what caliber this movement is? 

And how to fix pallet fork pivot? 

As I said, the parts of such movements are not interchangeable. I doubt if this movement is documented with specific caliber number.

As EU still exists and postal services within are easy, You can just post the movement (no need of the case) to me. It will be no problem for me to repair  it and send it back. You can learn on other movements, like Molnija, for which parts are available. This one will not allow mistakes, so it is not for beginners.

By the way, the pallet fork staff is threaded, and it could be easier to repivot it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, caseback said:

And I can attest to that 

 

Thats a " Big  Boy's " lathe

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Right - I have been chuckling about this. It's like Gandalf telling all us hobbits down here in the Shire how easy it is to defeat a Balrog.

Only thing to do is join the club and get that lathe that you want Michael

[mikepilk]

21 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Just this little iddy biddy thing

You know it makes sense, the more of us the merrier,  we can be the " Gentleman's League of Lathers "

I wish. I don't even have space for a waffer thin mint. My work area is my computer desk. All parts, tools, books etc are on shelves around me. The room also contains shoes, bookcases, two guitars, and (this will shock you ) a tumble drier  as the kitchen is too small for it. So dust is a problem.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I wish. I don't even have space for a waffer thin mint. My work area is my computer desk. All parts, tools, books etc are on shelves around me. The room also contains shoes, bookcases, two guitars, and (this will shock you ) a tumble drier  as the kitchen is too small for it. So dust is a problem.  

Lol Mr.Creosote.  it's just a matter of time Mike, not if but when that Ebay search begins .