Opening an old Waltham pocket watch

[Dave5]

I have zero knowledge of old pocket watches but I have a Waltham that I am trying to open to get the movement serial number so I can find out more about it. I got the outer back case open but there’s another inner case that doesn’t seem to want to open. Anyone have ideas on how to open it and access the movement? See attached link with photos of it. Thanks in advance.

[AndyGSi]

Welcome to the forum

Is there no dimple anywhere around the internal cover?

[RichardHarris123]

Hard to tell from your photos but some pocket watch, you open the bezel, then press a lever to swing the movement out of the front. 

[Dave5]

24 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Welcome to the forum

Is there no dimple anywhere around the internal cover?

I’ll take a closer look. If there is a dimple, is that where I would stick something in to release it? If so, what type of tool should be used? Thanks 

Edited January 4 by Dave5

[Dave5]

11 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Hard to tell from your photos but some pocket watch, you open the bezel, then press a lever to swing the movement out of the front. 

Do I twist the bezel in the front of the watch to the left to open it? Do you know where the lever might be? Thanks 

[AndyGSi]

26 minutes ago, Dave5 said:

I’ll take a closer look. If there is a dimple, is that where I would stick something in to release it? If so, what type of tool should be used? Thanks 

Depending on the dimple you may be able to just use your finger nail.

If you find a dimple please don't just try sticking anything in it as the case looks in reasonable condition.

I presume there are no markings in the case back?

Edit

Having a closer look at the photos I expect the dimple would be at the top as it appears it would hinge down like the back has.

Edited January 4 by AndyGSi

[mbwatch]

Yes the opening will be up at the top or just off center from the top (typically toward the right of the crown from the back side).  A very fine razor blade pushed into the gap where it meets the mid-case should pop it right open. Those are not usually tightly sealed and only take a slight bit of effort in the right place to snap open.

[AndyGSi]

34 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Yes the opening will be up at the top or just off center from the top (typically toward the right of the crown from the back side).  A very fine razor blade pushed into the gap where it meets the mid-case should pop it right open. Those are not usually tightly sealed and only take a slight bit of effort in the right place to snap open.

So this is the dimple here as I thought.

 

[Dave5]

@AndyGSi @mbwatchthank you for your help! I was able to get the case open and get the movement serial number.  Can you please help decipher what all this means in layman’s terms? https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/18467639
 

[AndyGSi]

What do you want to know?

Have you hovered above the ? on each line for explanations.

[Dave5]

3 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

What do you want to know?

Have you hovered above the ? on each line for explanations.

Thanks for the tip on hovering over the ? for explanations. It’s more of a sentimental value to me since it was my given to me by my late grandfather but just curious of approximate value and what it would take in terms of effort and cost to get some of it restored and making it operational. Thanks 

[AndyGSi]

15 minutes ago, Dave5 said:

Thanks for the tip on hovering over the ? for explanations. It’s more of a sentimental value to me since it was my given to me by my late grandfather but just curious of approximate value and what it would take in terms of effort and cost to get some of it restored and making it operational. Thanks 

Are there any more details inside the case showing what quality it is?

[mbwatch]

I would say the key details here are:

17 jewels - so high quality, probably capable of very good accuracy if well serviced, poised, regulated. 7 jewels would have been more common for an everyday middle class watch in 1912, so you've got a better one.

Grade total prouction: 251,950 - this is not at all rare and there should be plenty of parts available (rarer grades have total production under 10000)

Grade: 625 - use this if you need to search for replacement parts.

Model: 1908 is when Waltham introduced this version of the grade

Year: 1912 is when yours was built

Size: 16s - if you are unfamiliar with American pocket watch sizes, they were standardized in order to make cases and dials interchangeable (and also some parts interchangeable within a manufacturer's line). Size 16 is like the "second largest" of the normal sizes one would carry, and in my opinion it is the sweet spot. Large enough to be impressive in appearance and heft, but not so large as to be kind of unwieldy as size 18 tends to be. Also, size 16 became the eventual standard for Railroad Grade watches, which were the best of the best, and adjusted & maintained to accuracy standards that rival modern chronometers.

Railroad grade: No - yours wasn't a railroad watch, but having 17 jewels, a really meticulous restoration and regulation could make it perform close to one

Nowadays, most of the remaining monetary value of these watches lies in whatever gold content is in the case. But as a family watch, priceless.

One other thing about "grades" - with Swiss watches people will often talk about "high grade" vs "low grade" and that refers to the overall quality of the movement, the finishing, the jewel count. With American pocket watches, the relative numeric value of "grade" does not mean quality. It's more like the number that Toyota would use to differentiate a Camry from a Corolla. And sometimes "families" of movements closely numbered, suppose hypothetically "grade 501" might be 7 jewels open face while 502 was 7 jewels in hunter configuration, 503 was 17 jewels open face, 504 17 hunter, you get the idea, like the trim level on your Camry. But it doesn't mean that grade 600 is better than 500. I don't know anything about yours as grade 625 though. You can do some research.

Edited January 5 by mbwatch

[Dave5]

3 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Are there any more details inside the case showing what quality it is?

What would I look for inside the case to indicate that?

[mbwatch]

Numbers like "0800" or "0900" indicating silver content (not as likely on an American watch as Swiss), or something like "Guaranteed 20 years Gold Fill" or "Gold filled 14k". It is not too likely to be a solid gold case, but if it were, you'd expect to find a 14k or 9k stamped somewhere inside the caseback.

[Dave5]

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I would say the key details here are:

17 jewels - so high quality, probably capable of very good accuracy if well serviced, poised, regulated. 7 jewels would have been more common for an everyday middle class watch in 1912, so you've got a better one.

Grade total prouction: 251,950 - this is not at all rare and there should be plenty of parts available (rarer grades have total production under 10000)

Grade: 625 - use this if you need to search for replacement parts.

Model: 1908 is when Waltham introduced this version of the grade

Year: 1912 is when yours was built

Size: 16s - if you are unfamiliar with American pocket watch sizes, they were standardized in order to make cases and dials interchangeable (and also some parts interchangeable within a manufacturer's line). Size 16 is like the "second largest" of the normal sizes one would carry, and in my opinion it is the sweet spot. Large enough to be impressive in appearance and heft, but not so large as to be kind of unwieldy as size 18 tends to be. Also, size 16 became the eventual standard for Railroad Grade watches, which were the best of the best, and adjusted & maintained to accuracy standards that rival modern chronometers.

Railroad grade: No - yours wasn't a railroad watch, but having 17 jewels, a really meticulous restoration and regulation could make it perform close to one

Nowadays, most of the remaining monetary value of these watches lies in whatever gold content is in the case. But as a family watch, priceless.

One other thing about "grades" - with Swiss watches people will often talk about "high grade" vs "low grade" and that refers to the overall quality of the movement, the finishing, the jewel count. With American pocket watches, the relative numeric value of "grade" does not mean quality. It's more like the number that Toyota would use to differentiate a Camry from a Corolla. And sometimes "families" of movements closely numbered, suppose hypothetically "grade 501" might be 7 jewels open face while 502 was 7 jewels in hunter configuration, 503 was 17 jewels open face, 504 17 hunter, you get the idea, like the trim level on your Camry. But it doesn't mean that grade 600 is better than 500. I don't know anything about yours as grade 625 though. You can do some research.

Thanks so much for the detailed info! I may inquire from some local watch repair places to see what getting some work done on it may cost. What are the chances it would work if I wind it up? What is the proper way to wind it and how many times?

[Dave5]

7 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Numbers like "0800" or "0900" indicating silver content (not as likely on an American watch as Swiss), or something like "Guaranteed 20 years Gold Fill" or "Gold filled 14k". It is not too likely to be a solid gold case, but if it were, you'd expect to find a 14k or 9k stamped somewhere inside the caseback.

I’ve attached photos of the insides of the inner and outer cases. Does that tell you anything? Also, please see the other photos - how did the crown get so corroded and the back seems worn…can that be resolved by a professional or is that a lost cause? Thanks again

 

[mbwatch]

Before winding it, you can find out if it is going to be DOA by looking at the balance wheel. With the back open, hold it flat in your hand (dial downward) and give it a sharp rotating twist. If the balance is good, it should set into motion to oscillate a little bit. If it does not move at all, winding isn't going to make the watch run because either the movement is too dirty and clogged with old oil, or the balance staff is broken and needs replacing. Either of these two is a likely outcome for an old watch.

But if the balance does swing a little, look at the dial and make a note of the position of the seconds hand. Give it another twist to set the balance in motion and then look again to see if the seconds hand moved. If it did, next you can try to wind it 4 or 5 turns

If the watch has a good mainspring and it starts to tick with a little wind, then you can keep winding it gently. A watch like this will typically take about 16-20 turns of the crown in your fingers before it resists and stops winding at the end of the spring. But if the spring is broken, it will never stop winding and probably won't run more than a few seconds at a time (if that)

About your case:

The 20 years guarantee means this was a "gold filled" case. Gold fill is stronger than what we would know today as gold plating, because the inner base metal was sandwiched between two thin gold sheets and compressed. The fill ends up being far thicker than modern gold plating. Now that 20 year guarantee refers to how long the case manufacturer expected the watch could be until the outer gold fill started to wear off. Yours is significantly worn off the back, indicating that your watch was well used for a very long time. Because the cases were standardized in size (16s for yours), the watch could eventually be put into a brand new case.

The crown is also well used and the gold fill has worn off from daily winding. This exposes the brass underneath, which is more prone to tarnish and corrosion. The crown can be replaced if you want to. The case can also be replaced, but for a family watch I would personally keep it as is if this is an heirloom. (Did you say this was an heirloom or did I make that up or assume it?)

[AndyGSi]

Here's the details for the case from the same pocket watch database.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/case-companies/wadsworth-watch-case-co/grades/Referee?filterSize=16&filterJewels=17&filterMovementSetting=pendant&filterModels=all&filterYearStart=&filterYearEnd=

If you look at your serial number 2272120 and then check these other 2 examples you'll see
the dates match your movement as being pre 1912 so more than likely it's original case.

 

 

[Dave5]

37 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Before winding it, you can find out if it is going to be DOA by looking at the balance wheel. With the back open, hold it flat in your hand (dial downward) and give it a sharp rotating twist. If the balance is good, it should set into motion to oscillate a little bit. If it does not move at all, winding isn't going to make the watch run because either the movement is too dirty and clogged with old oil, or the balance staff is broken and needs replacing. Either of these two is a likely outcome for an old watch.

But if the balance does swing a little, look at the dial and make a note of the position of the seconds hand. Give it another twist to set the balance in motion and then look again to see if the seconds hand moved. If it did, next you can try to wind it 4 or 5 turns

If the watch has a good mainspring and it starts to tick with a little wind, then you can keep winding it gently. A watch like this will typically take about 16-20 turns of the crown in your fingers before it resists and stops winding at the end of the spring. But if the spring is broken, it will never stop winding and probably won't run more than a few seconds at a time (if that)

About your case:

The 20 years guarantee means this was a "gold filled" case. Gold fill is stronger than what we would know today as gold plating, because the inner base metal was sandwiched between two thin gold sheets and compressed. The fill ends up being far thicker than modern gold plating. Now that 20 year guarantee refers to how long the case manufacturer expected the watch could be until the outer gold fill started to wear off. Yours is significantly worn off the back, indicating that your watch was well used for a very long time. Because the cases were standardized in size (16s for yours), the watch could eventually be put into a brand new case.

The crown is also well used and the gold fill has worn off from daily winding. This exposes the brass underneath, which is more prone to tarnish and corrosion. The crown can be replaced if you want to. The case can also be replaced, but for a family watch I would personally keep it as is if this is an heirloom. (Did you say this was an heirloom or did I make that up or assume it?)

Yes I got it from my grandfather in Massachusetts 30-40 years ago when I was a kid. He was born in 1918 - I don’t recall if he told me at the time how or when he acquired it but sounds like it was well used.  
Thanks for the instructions on how to test it out and see if it’ll wind- I’m not even familiar with all the different parts you mentioned so I’m going to have to educate myself a bit more before I even trust myself to know what I’m looking at when I walk through your instructions. 

[AndyGSi]

The balance is the wheel with spring in the bottom left of your photo.

This is what you're looking to oscillate as you twist the watch.

[RichardHarris123]

The case is gold plated or similar,;a thick coating, that's the 20 year guarantee.  Wind it a few times, see what happens. 

[mbwatch]

2 hours ago, Dave5 said:

Thanks for the instructions on how to test it out and see if it’ll wind- I’m not even familiar with all the different parts you mentioned so I’m going to have to educate myself a bit more before I even trust myself to know what I’m looking at when I walk through your instructions. 

The balance wheel is the watch's beating heart, visible in your photo as Andy pointed out. And the mainspring is coiled up inside the watch, its only power source.

Good luck with this one. One caution - if you do find it will run and wind it up, don't run it very much without having a watchmaker service it. It will have dried up oil inside which can end up causing more wear and tear. Winding it up to run occasionally would be pretty harmless, but you wouldn't want to have it ticking all day every day for months without being cleaned and oiled.

[Dave5]

6 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Before winding it, you can find out if it is going to be DOA by looking at the balance wheel. With the back open, hold it flat in your hand (dial downward) and give it a sharp rotating twist. If the balance is good, it should set into motion to oscillate a little bit. If it does not move at all, winding isn't going to make the watch run because either the movement is too dirty and clogged with old oil, or the balance staff is broken and needs replacing. Either of these two is a likely outcome for an old watch.

But if the balance does swing a little, look at the dial and make a note of the position of the seconds hand. Give it another twist to set the balance in motion and then look again to see if the seconds hand moved. If it did, next you can try to wind it 4 or 5 turns

If the watch has a good mainspring and it starts to tick with a little wind, then you can keep winding it gently. A watch like this will typically take about 16-20 turns of the crown in your fingers before it resists and stops winding at the end of the spring. But if the spring is broken, it will never stop winding and probably won't run more than a few seconds at a time (if that)

About your case:

The 20 years guarantee means this was a "gold filled" case. Gold fill is stronger than what we would know today as gold plating, because the inner base metal was sandwiched between two thin gold sheets and compressed. The fill ends up being far thicker than modern gold plating. Now that 20 year guarantee refers to how long the case manufacturer expected the watch could be until the outer gold fill started to wear off. Yours is significantly worn off the back, indicating that your watch was well used for a very long time. Because the cases were standardized in size (16s for yours), the watch could eventually be put into a brand new case.

The crown is also well used and the gold fill has worn off from daily winding. This exposes the brass underneath, which is more prone to tarnish and corrosion. The crown can be replaced if you want to. The case can also be replaced, but for a family watch I would personally keep it as is if this is an heirloom. (Did you say this was an heirloom or did I make that up or assume it?)

WOW- I followed your instructions and it actually works!  I was just able to work up to rotating the crown clockwise maybe a dozen times and the watch has been ticking for five minutes now and still going. Amazing! So cool to hear something from 1912 from my grandfather working. I’ll take your advice though about not doing that again until I get it serviced (cleaned and oiled) by a professional. Maybe I’ll just start with a basic servicing and then see how much repair places want to replace certain things like the cracked glass in the front of the watch. Thanks for all your help!

[mbwatch]

15 hours ago, Dave5 said:

Maybe I’ll just start with a basic servicing and then see how much repair places want to replace certain things like the cracked glass in the front of the watch.

You shouldn't expect too much more cost to replace the crystal - it's very routine, and case cleaning should be included in service. Case polishing might not be included, though your case has a lot of gold fill wear so anything beyond a light buff might make it worse.

But if you are game for it, replacing the crystal is something you could do yourself. You pop off the bezel with a knife. It is possible to buy actual mineral glass crystals usually measured to 0.1mm increments, or acrylic/plastic (not sure which you have now) that are sold in various increments. The glass ones can be glued in using hypo-cement or UV-curing glue, and the plastic ones are inserted by flexing them downward to smaller diameter and setting into the bezel to expand back with an inexpensive press tool. Crystals are about $10-$15 and a workable press could be under $25.