Struggling with 1917 watch

[graemeW]

Put the balance back in. It's all lubricated again.

It doesn't like to self start. It also starts of slowly and builds up to speed over a period of 10 or 15 seconds

Dial down is still best. Every other orientation is still worse, some considerably. I've had to move the regulator right over and it's still slow. I'll leave it running for a bit.

 

 

Slow mo suggests amplitude is higher

 

Slow mo in its worst position

 

 

My phone doesn't like to focus on slow motion mode, I did my best, might have to zoom in.

I'm unsure where to go from here, apart from maybe revisiting the hair spring.

I'm amazed that apparently beat error is good. Not sure why it's running so slow though.

 

Microscope slow motion

 

Edited January 24 by graemeW

[Nucejoe]

 A test to check if a pivot is bent, is to remove relevent end stone, put the balance in, do a free oscilation test. A good pivot protrudes through the jewels hole, and spins only on its axis of rotation, with zero wobble. 

Try this and you highly likely to see what has made your balance go crazy, not to mention that your movement has multiple faults. 

 Mark offers a fault finding course, which I haven't seen all relevent vids of, going by  the few I have seen, I recommend the course . 

 Each part can be tested as you tear down the movement, a process mostly gone unpracticed here.

  Unscrew every screw you can ,  clean, assemble and lube, and timegrapher or the movement tells you something is wrong, so you have to go back for the second tear down , just to find the fault that you could have spotted in the first. 

Rgds

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

The only usable video is the one under microscope. The amplitude there is about 175, so still far away from what is needed for this movement to perform well enough.

For now leave the balance and hairspring alone. The free oscillations test is good. But is there difference in amplitudes DU/DD?  At this point You don't have to worry about the rate, You only need more amplitude.

You have to lubricate the pallets and see what the result is. Also, may be the total lock is bigger than needed. Can I have good picture of the escape wheel teeth? Is there significant free play between the guard pin and the guard roller when balance is turned left and right? Is the 'run to the banking' big or small?

The autostart is expected to happen when winding the movement from fully unwound state.

[graemeW]

2 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

The only usable video is the one under microscope. The amplitude there is about 175, so still far away from what is needed for this movement to perform well enough.

For now leave the balance and hairspring alone. The free oscillations test is good. But is there difference in amplitudes DU/DD?  At this point You don't have to worry about the rate, You only need more amplitude.

You have to lubricate the pallets and see what the result is. Also, may be the total lock is bigger than needed. Can I have good picture of the escape wheel teeth? Is there significant free play between the guard pin and the guard roller when balance is turned left and right? Is the 'run to the banking' big or small?

The autostart is expected to happen when winding the movement from fully unwound state.

How is amplitude determined? The balance wheel is turning nearly a full revolution, so by your numbers, I assume amplitude is rotation from the resting center? So 175 in each direction?

I will try and get a good judge of dial up amplitude.

I have lubricated the pallets, I just did it after I took the photo

I will check about the guard pin. I hadn't looked. I'll familiarise myself with the parts better and have a good look. Same with the run to the banking. It's not something I've heard before and don't understand it, but I will research it and check.

Autostart when winding, it's maybe 50/50. I wound and unwound it 2 or 3 times to make sure everything was settled. I'll keep an eye on that and see how it gets on.

 

Thanks, appreciate your advice.

[nevenbekriev]

Yes, amplitude is the total swing of the balance from neutral position to one of directions

All terms new to You that I have used are concerning the interaction of pallet fork and escape wheel. We need to see if it is possible to adjust the escapement as to be more efficient in order to gain some more amplitude.

What is the condition of the wheel pivots? Is there wear in the central wheel bearing holes?

[graemeW]

23 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

The only usable video is the one under microscope. The amplitude there is about 175, so still far away from what is needed for this movement to perform well enough.

For now leave the balance and hairspring alone. The free oscillations test is good. But is there difference in amplitudes DU/DD?  At this point You don't have to worry about the rate, You only need more amplitude.

You have to lubricate the pallets and see what the result is. Also, may be the total lock is bigger than needed. Can I have good picture of the escape wheel teeth? Is there significant free play between the guard pin and the guard roller when balance is turned left and right? Is the 'run to the banking' big or small?

The autostart is expected to happen when winding the movement from fully unwound state.

Ok, this is stretching my knowledge a bit.

But, the guard pin ever so slightly brishes the roller when the balance wheel moves anticlockwise. I can't quite see if it does the same in the other direction. Should it be brushing the roller?

I'm struggling to find an explanation for 'run to the banking' to be able to judge.

Lastly, yes, I can take whatever photos of the escape wheel teeth and jewels you want, but what exactly is it you want to see? I'll make sure I get the best angles.

1 minute ago, nevenbekriev said:

Yes, amplitude is the total swing of the balance from neutral position to one of directions

All terms new to You that I have used are concerning the interaction of pallet fork and escape wheel. We need to see if it is possible to adjust the escapement as to be more efficient in order to gain some more amplitude.

What is the condition of the wheel pivots? Is there wear in the central wheel bearing holes?

I would say the pivots and bearing holes are all good. It's 108 years old, it's not as new, but I've seen many photos and videos of watch wear and this looks nothing like them. In fact, in a lot of videos I've seen watchmakers are saying things are fine and they look far more worn than this is. You can see witness marks where things have run, but there is no slop or free play anywhere.

Took 2 bridges off and cleaned the oil off the pivots to show you the condition. This is 3rd wheel and escape wheel. But this is how all the pivots look. There is very little wear in this watch. Amazing really.

General pics of escape wheel teeth. Defined, shiny on the ends, no wear, escape wheel is beveled on the underside, presumably to reduce friction area.

[Nucejoe]

 Dial down being best, indicates possible rubbing of hairspring on balance spokes.

 A free oscilation test in DU & DD before assembly and without the fork , would have indicated the same, plus possible short pivot on cock side. 

 Though not as good as a wishei, accuracy meter isn't worthless, shows solid tic & toc on graphical display. 

 Did you clean the balance in ultrasonic?     Lighter fluid is not shellac friendly in ultrasonic. 

 

 

 

[graemeW]

2 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 Dial down being best, indicates possible rubbing of hairspring on balance spokes.

 A free oscilation test in DU & DD before assembly and without the fork , would have indicated the same, plus possible short pivot on cock side. 

 Though not as good as a wishei, accuracy meter isn't worthless, shows solid tic & toc on graphical display. 

 Did you clean the balance in ultrasonic?     Lighter fluid is not shellac friendly in ultrasonic. 

 

 

 

I will do some free movement tests in various positions.

No, I cleaned the balance gently with a tiny brush and some lighter fluid. Same with the pallet fork. I made certain I didn't soften the shellac or move the jewels.

Should the guard pin be brushing the roller?

Free oscillations...

DD 45

DU 45

CU 18

CD 13

CR 12

CL 13

Oh, and dial down it did 28 seconds with the pallet fork in, but no escape wheel. I just wanted to know how free the pallet fork was.

Right, I've been reading my book (practical watch repairing). I'd read about the escapement  the pallet fork, the guard pin, lock, run to the banking etc before. However, I hadn't opened a watch at that point so I really didn't understand.

're reading it now, I get it. I also understand that asking you what the run to the banking was, or how the guard pin should be, isn't something easily answered in a message.

It appears though that this watch has issues. I suspect it's had parts replaced. I don't think the whole escapement set up has been done perfectly. The guard pin is definitely too long for a start.

I think I'm going to have to follow the book, inspect every part, check all the angles and clearances, adjust as necessary, and hopefully get it working optimally.

Considering all ive done before this is service a sekonda, practiced stripped and reassembled 2 destroyed movements, and serviced a josmar, this watch is proving something of a baptism of fire.

It's doing exactly what I wanted though, making me learn. I didn't think I was ready for hair spring manipulation, but managed it. Seems I am now going to learn about setting adjusting the escapement!

[GPrideaux]

There's an issue with the train not running freely. Your video shows the wheels coming to quite an abrupt stop.

"Run to banking" is the movement of the pallet between achieving lock (i.e. the escape wheel contacting the locking surface of the jewel) and the fork landing on the banking pin.

[mbwatch]

I scrolled back to that video and concur with @GPrideaux . I would expect to see the escape wheel slow to a stop in that test but it just stops dead. Testing each wheel independently without its mesh neighbors for a free spin, where a puff of air should set it into a nice spin that lasts a long time. The largest wheels may not spin as long but the escape wheel should just whizz along.

If each spins well by itself, then install one neighbor to ensure the two mesh and spin freely, again slowing to a stop.

[Nucejoe]

An image is worth a thousand words.

Check the image this link contains. 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.awci.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F12%2FDrop-Lock.jpg&tbnid=ubmUK88uQ16g4M&vet=1&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.awci.com%2Fwatchmaking-excellen%2Ftotal-lock-run-to-the-banking%2F&docid=hBKxPjG5MF81yM&w=600&h=347&hl=en-GB&gl=iq&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim%2Fm6%2F4&kgs=8c8c07b7b8445ae8

 Rgds

 

 

[graemeW]

7 hours ago, GPrideaux said:

There's an issue with the train not running freely. Your video shows the wheels coming to quite an abrupt stop.

"Run to banking" is the movement of the pallet between achieving lock (i.e. the escape wheel contacting the locking surface of the jewel) and the fork landing on the banking pin.

I will inspect everything again, thanks.

[graemeW]

This is getting a bit samey, sorry.

I checked all the train. I 're pegged everything (sharpened under the microscope so it actually fully got inside all the holes), polished all the pivots, and checked every gear one  by one. The escape wheel didnt free spin, but it does now. The cock can be adjusted side to side. If it's not dead right, the pivot isn't vertical. Once set dead right, the escape wheel spins madly with a puff of air. Then on to the next wheel back, same situation with the cock, got it so both spin together with a puff of air. Then the center wheel and second wheel. I polished the center wheel holes in the plates too. These spin completely freely also. But, the middle cock holding the third wheel, this needs tweaking to get the mesh right between the two adjacent wheels otherwise it's not as free spinning as it should be. I got it as good as I possibly could. It spins much better but still maybe not as good as it should be. Everything is great independently so i suspect it's a mesh issue. I need to go back and recheck all the teeth for burrs I think.

But, I figured I may as well put the balance in and see what it's doing.

Dial down

Dial up

 

I'm very happy that these are pretty much identical. Rate has increased significantly to a point where the regulator is set central and rate is good. Beat error is up, and amplitude hasn't increased much.

Crown up

Crown down

Crown left

Crown right

So still fast in 2 crown positions and slow in the other 2. Amplitude still low when the watch is on its side. But, it's showing a lot more consistency and seems to be running better. It's heading in the right direction. 

I have loads more i can check. This watch is sapping days out my life though. I might take a break from it and service one of the others I have waiting. If one of those goes well it might give me a bit of a lift in morale.

Slow motion of current condition. Amplitude is a tiny bit better, but not much.

 

Just took this video to show what I'm dealing with. The cock screws are tight. And yet you can move the cocks and alter the mesh and how vertical the pivots are. I am pushing these pretty much to the extreme of their positions but it shows how precise I need to get them to get the train running free. And even then, they can easily move. They move when tightening the screws too. I know once set no one is going to be poking them, but it would be so much better if all the top train jewel positions were fixed!

 

[nevenbekriev]

Sorry I can not participate all the time...

OK, a lot new things here.

About the guard pin and roller. The guard pin would never touch the roller. There should be 'draw' - very weak force that attracts the pallet fork to the banking pins (like if the pins are magnets) and it must keep the guard pin away of the roller. Draw must be present in both sides (to both banking pins). In banking positions, there should be safe distance (free play) between safety roller/safety pin. This distance should be equal in both sides. If it is smaller in one of the sides, this may be because the guard pin is bent or the banking pins are not correctly regulated/bent. If the Draw is not present or not enough in one of the sides, thou the free play between guard couple may be normal, the pin will touch the roller and cause friction and great amplitude loss. The draw must be checked in all 15 escape wheel teeth and both sides of the fork.

If the drop lock and run to the banking together are bigger than needed, this may mean that banking pins are opened to allow bigger swing of the fork than needed. But it will be true if the free play of the guard couple is bigger than normal too. In such case the amplitude will suffer as the efficiency of the escapement is worsen  and simple closing the banking pins will return the things to normal. But it is not easy to explain what is normal for all this parameters, so You can get some normally working watch movements, put only the balance and the fork in movement and check the free plays as to get idea of what is normal.

Now for the wheel train rotation freedom. Yes, it is seen that the train is not free enough. More - this is not normal such small tilting of the wheels by the cock shifting to cause the wheel to not rotate free. It is not correct the cocks to be able to move like that but this can be corrected by closing the holes for the fixing pins of the cocks. Here I don't speak about the mesh, but about freedom of rotation - it should not be affected by such shifting.  So please, check if there is enough axial free play. If the lack of axial free play is not the reason, this will mean the holes are small for the pivots and the pivots will have to be burnished until correctly fit the holes.

 

Edited January 25 by nevenbekriev

[graemeW]

8 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Sorry I can not participate all the time...

OK, a lot new things here.

About the guard pin and roller. The guard pin would never touch the roller. There should be 'draw' - very weak force that attracts the pallet fork to the banking pins (like if the pins are magnets) and it must keep the guard pin away of the roller. Draw must be present in both sides (to both banking pins). In banking positions, there should be safe distance (free play) between safety roller/safety pin. This distance should be equal in both sides. If it is smaller in one of the sides, this may be because the guard pin is bent or the banking pins are not correctly regulated/bent. If the Draw is not present or not enough in one of the sides, thou the free play between guard couple may be normal, the pin will touch the roller and cause friction and great amplitude loss. The draw must be checked in all 15 escape wheel teeth and both sides of the fork.

If the drop lock and run to the banking together are bigger than needed, this may mean that banking pins are opened to allow bigger swing of the fork than needed. But it will be true if the free play of the guard couple is bigger than normal too. In such case the amplitude will suffer as the efficiency of the escapement is worsen  and simple closing the banking pins will return the things to normal. But it is not easy to explain what is normal for all this parameters, so You can get some normally working watch movements, put only the balance and the fork in movement and check the free plays as to get idea of what is normal.

Now for the wheel train rotation freedom. Yes, it is seen that the train is not free enough. More - this is not normal such small tilting of the wheels by the cock shifting to cause the wheel to not rotate free. It is not correct the cocks to be able to move like that but this can be corrected by closing the holes for the fixing pins of the cocks. Here I don't speak about the mesh, but about freedom of rotation - it should not be affected by such shifting.  So please, check if there is enough axial free play. If the lack of axial free play is not the reason, this will mean the holes are small for the pivots and the pivots will have to be burnished until correctly fit the holes.

 

No need ro apologise, I appreciate your help.

Ihave been reading my book about the escapement and will go through all those checks and work out what's going on. 

The balance jewel only just clears the pallet fork when the fork is on the banking pins. If the banking pins were closed up even the slightest amount, i believe the roller would lock in the fork. As i say though, i have a good book written in the 1940s that explains how to check all these things and how to correct it. I will work through them.

 

The shifting of the cocks does not lock the wheels individually. It's not an issue of the pivots tilting or the pivots locking. What happens is the mesh between the teeth becomes too loose and the teeth try to ride over each other. They can't, as there isn't enough room, and it locks. The teeth are not worn in any way. I am quite used to setting gear mesh, although not in watches. I have been inspecting the gears on this an awful lot. There is one very specific sweet spot but it's small. This is as free rotating as I can get it. Each wheel will rock back, they are all free enough to move with air. All pivots are unworn and spotless, jewel holes are spotless, end shake and side shake are good. With the mesh set as perfectly as I can, I don't think there is any room for improvement in the train. At least nothing I can think of. I do agree though that it would be nice if it were a little more free moving. I just don't think the parts are precise enough to achieve it.

The problem with closing up the pin holes to make the cocks tight is I might not make them tight in exactly the right position. I'd then be in a worse situation I believe.

[nevenbekriev]

In normal, the mesh changes should for sure not affect that much the freedom. What You show is not normal. You should close the holes for the pins and make sure the wheels are upright. If they are not, then You force the cock so the pins will take the correct position as to fix the cock correctly - the wheel to be upright. Then the mesh should be more or less correct. For sure, the freedom should be good and not depend on the mesh in certain limits of variations of the mesh, and this is not so in You movement and needs investigation. What I see is that You move the 4th wheel cock. The long pivot for the seconds hand is something that bends and breaks when the watch is dropped as the dial shifts. Is it possible that the wheel is replaced? Is the teeth count correct?

[graemeW]

17 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

In normal, the mesh changes should for sure not affect that much the freedom. What You show is not normal. You should close the holes for the pins and make sure the wheels are upright. If they are not, then You force the cock so the pins will take the correct position as to fix the cock correctly - the wheel to be upright. Then the mesh should be more or less correct. For sure, the freedom should be good and not depend on the mesh in certain limits of variations of the mesh, and this is not so in You movement and needs investigation. What I see is that You move the 4th wheel cock. The long pivot for the seconds hand is something that bends and breaks when the watch is dropped as the dial shifts. Is it possible that the wheel is replaced? Is the teeth count correct?

I will check tooth count, but in every way it's the same as the other wheels. By that I mean exactly the same material, exactly the same texture, exactly the same aging. I suspect if the tooth count was wrong things would be very bad.

As you suspect, when the pivots are vertical, mesh is correct. But the cocks move as you tighten the screws which is a pain. I've taken to just tightening the screws, then adjusting the cocks to get the pivots vertical and mesh correct.

I will try and tighten up the pins.

[Knebo]

5 hours ago, graemeW said:

Just took this video to show what I'm dealing with. The cock screws are tight. And yet you can move the cocks and alter the mesh and how vertical the pivots are. I am pushing these pretty much to the extreme of their positions but it shows how precise I need to get them to get the train running free. And even then, they can easily move. They move when tightening the screws too. I know once set no one is going to be poking them, but it would be so much better if all the top train jewel positions were fixed!

Wow, I think this going to give me nightmares. 

Are you sure that none of this moving around has bent any pivots? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

For sure in the video the train is not free and this is an issue. If there the wheels are upright (and the mesh therefor correct), and there is no problem with pinions/jewels, there is another problem then.

[graemeW]

2 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Wow, I think this going to give me nightmares. 

Are you sure that none of this moving around has bent any pivots? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its a real pain. Ive nonidea why they used seperate cocks instead on one bridge!

Positive nothing is bent.

All pivots are perfect and the wheels are level (is that the right term) on the shafts.

The only thing that isn't perfect is the pinion gear on the escape wheel shaft has a slight amount if wear where the previous train wheel runs.

The shaft looks the same top and bottom, it looks like it would be possible to remove the escape wheel and press it on the other end, moving the wear out of the range of operation and also moving the wear to the non thrust side of the tooth. But the wear is not much more than witness marks so not sure it's worth it. Apart from that, it all literally looks brand new.

1 minute ago, nevenbekriev said:

For sure in the video the train is not free and this is an issue. If there the wheels are upright (and the mesh therefor correct), and there is no problem with pinions/jewels, there is another problem then.

What else can it be though. If I ever so slightly tilt the watch then you can see the escape wheel moves backwards once it's stopped running but it doesn't look any freer. Flat on the bench it doesn't quite manage to move backwards once it's stopped. 

 

[nevenbekriev]

8 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Are you sure that none of this moving around has bent any pivots? 

 

If You put a wheel with the pivot in it's bearing hole, the wheel will be free to tilt to +/-10 degr, at least this is what is normal. The tilt that cock shifting in the video causes is much less than this.

10 minutes ago, graemeW said:

What else can it be though. If I ever so slightly tilt the watch then you can see the escape wheel moves backwards once it's stopped running but it doesn't look any freer. Flat on the bench it doesn't quite manage to move backwards once it's stopped. 

 

Turning the wheels back after they stop is not only from the train freedom. The spring in the barrel is part of this happening.

Well, try to check freedom (barrel and pallet fork not in movement) then in DU position, and in vertical too. There must be inertia, the wheels must stop slowly, not suddenly.

 

[graemeW]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

If You put a wheel with the pivot in it's bearing hole, the wheel will be free to tilt to +/-10 degr, at least this is what is normal. The tilt that cock shifting in the video causes is much less than this.

Turning the wheels back after they stop is not only from the train freedom. The spring in the barrel is part of this happening.

Well, try to check freedom (barrel and pallet fork not in movement) then in DU position, and in vertical too. There must be inertia, the wheels must stop slowly, not suddenly.

 

Something is slowing it, yes.

I just took it back down to the train (I'm very quick at stripping this thing now!).

I know this is a terrible quality video.

I don't have a dust blower, so I'm just blowing on it, I know I shouldn't.

I know it sounds loud because I'm right next to the mic tryimy to film, but this was as gentle a blow as I could manage.

Blowing on the escape wheel turns the whole train

 

I've found something.

Not sure if it's bad enough to cause a problem, but I can find no other even slight issues.

The jewel for the third wheel has a chip. It doesn't look to reach the hole, but I guess it must.

 

The corresponding pivot shows no sign of wear. I know it rides on the smaller diameter section.

 

And this photo tries to show the slight wear on the teeth of the escape wheel pinion

Doesn't really show it though. You can see where the third wheel interacts with it though. You can see no witness marks at all on any other wheel tooth or pivot.

The jewel, even if it is a problem, I can't do anything about it. 

Edited January 25 by graemeW

[nevenbekriev]

Well, this only shows that escape and 4th wheel are free. But this means that even if there is some friction in next wheels, it will not affect much the amplitude.

OK, wind the spring to the end and leave it to work to see how many hours sit will work and if it will unwind to the end.

[graemeW]

3 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Well, this only shows that escape and 4th wheel are free. But this means that even if there is some friction in next wheels, it will not affect much the amplitude.

OK, wind the spring to the end and leave it to work to see how many hours sit will work and if it will unwind to the end.

Blowing on them the whole train spins. The center wheel is obviously very slow though. But with a medium puff the whole train whirrs away happily.

 

What do you make of the chipped jewel? As I say, I don't have the skills, or the tools to replace it even if I could somehow manage to find a replacement. But curious if you think it's bad enough to cause a problem.

While it's apart I might take the hair spring off again. I had to tweek it once it was back together to get it between the banking pins. I don't know for sure if it's moved the collar from it's central position. It's a nagging doubt so might as well sort it while it's apart.

I'll get it all back together tomorrow and let it run for a day or two,  see what it does.

[nevenbekriev]

Which of the jewels is chipped? Is it in this movement?

Something about the hairspring. The main thing for it is to not touch anything but the regulator pins, including not touching itself. If this is fulfilled, then it may be tilted, not centered, cupped, whatever, even not centered between regulator pins, the amplitude will not suffer. Only one thing - the not centered spring will apply side force to the balance staff and thus increase friction, but this side force is so small that friction created and amplitude decreasing due it will be hard to register. The spring must be centered, flat, parallel and so on, as this is the best way to ensure it will not touch and more - it will look the best possible