Struggling with 1917 watch

[Knebo]

4 hours ago, graemeW said:

I might get some terms wrong, but had chance to look at this more today.

Checked the lock on the pallet jewels. Couldn't quite get my head around the 2° of lock thing, but the pallets seem to lock and release at the right times. The run to the banking is there, but small, I believe that's good. The shake between the guide pin to roller and pallet fork to banking pins is good too.

Only thing I found wrong was the guide pin was a little bent. I discovered that when checking where it points in each direction in relation to the level hole when the pallet jewels release. Straightened that before checking the shake between the guile pin/roller and fork/banking. The shake is the same on both sides. Probably wouldn't have been before so straighter the pin.

I also tweeted the hair spring some more to get it more convincingly between the regulator pins while the collar is central. I think it's pretty good. Collar doesn't move at all when sweeping the regulation range.

The bottom of the balance wheel has seen some serious action!

The screw at 3 ocklock is the heavy point according to the tweezers poise set up.

The pins, and indeed the wheel itself, have had loads taken off from 12.30 to 2.

Also at 9 and 7.

At least that means when I poise it I don't have to worry about how I do it. It's had loads taken off though. Maybe I'll end up adding weight to poise it, I don't know.

But I'll try and do it dynamically once it's back together.

At least I'm happy now I've checked the escapement that there are no issues, at least none big enough to show up to a novice.

Edit, I can't poise it yet. Need to set beat error, see how it runs to make sure it's all ok, and then service it again really.

Edit

Beat error is a 2, I'll adjust that. It's about 200sd slow, but that's not an issue right now. Amplitude is back down to 200 though. It has just gone back together though. It's been apart maybe 10 times since it was cleaned and lubricated. Maybe all the oil just isn't where it should be. I'll leave it for a bit.

Watching the hair spring though, it's moving back and forth with each rotation, hitting the banking pin and the boot (is that what's it's called?) In a rather satisfying manor. This pleases me. I believe that's how it should be.

Edit again, beat error is a pain to set! I think the hairspring collar is too loose. I can gently hold the balance wheel and poke the collar with an oiled and get it to move.

Checked free oscilations and it's back down to 25 seconds. 

I think strip, clean, lubricate, go through all the checks as it goes together hopefully for the last time. Then try and poise it.

@graemeW, mate, just a word of encouragement:

The way you're handling this project is admirable. I hope you see how much you're learning. Probably more than most people learn in 10+ watch services. You are repeatedly handling very sensitive parts and seem to not to break them. That's all fantastic! Irrespective of what amplitude you'll eventually achieve, this experience was worth it and priceless. Kudos to you! 

[graemeW]

22 minutes ago, Knebo said:

@graemeW, mate, just a word of encouragement:

The way you're handling this project is admirable. I hope you see how much you're learning. Probably more than most people learn in 10+ watch services. You are repeatedly handling very sensitive parts and seem to not to break them. That's all fantastic! Irrespective of what amplitude you'll eventually achieve, this experience was worth it and priceless. Kudos to you! 

Thank you, that's nice to hear.

Considering a month ago I literally had no idea how a watch worked (I assumed there were maybe 4 times as many parts ) I think its going ok.

Buying a microscope (cheap £60 prior long arm from Facebook marketplace) really helped.

I wasn't intending to get this deep into how they operate this quickly, but yes, it's forced me to learn, which is exactly what I enjoy about a hobby.

It's alot less messy than rebuilding engines and gearboxes too.

My tweezers skills have improved loads and I'm amazed I haven't broken this hairspring yet.

This watch has been a great starter I think as it's not been a case of just replace a broken bit and it works. It's forced me to learn how to assess each aspect.

You folk on this forum have been a godsend. I am very grateful for everyone's help. I also feel it's my responsibility to repay that help by succeeding.

I'll get the amplitude back. I had 270 out of it before I took the escapement apart again. But it is basically full of dirt and no lube again now, so it's to be expected I guess.

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, graemeW said:

folk on this forum have been a godsend. I am very grateful for everyone's help. I also feel it's my responsibility to repay that help by succeeding.

You owe us nothing, we get pleasure by helping.  

[GPrideaux]

17 hours ago, graemeW said:

Checked free oscilations and it's back down to 25 seconds.

This should, I think, take precedence over trying to adjust beat error or poise as it probably means an issue with the hairspring touching either an arm of the balance wheel or the balance cock. Also check for other stray fibres touching the balance ... I recently had a tiny black fibre caught between the barrel bridge and the mainplate in such a way that it touched the balance. It was so tiny that it was only visible with the microscope yet it made the difference in my free oscillation test between 40-odd oscillations and almost 140 oscillations (or, if you prefer, 16 seconds and 56 seconds) starting from a 180º swing.

Also, a few little vocabulary items, if I may:

• The pin in the middle of the pallet fork is the guard pin, not the guide pin
• The bit in the middle of the hairspring that holds it to the balance staff is the collet, not the collar (although collar is quite a good name for it, too, but it's non-standard). BTW, the collet should be tight enough that it can't slip, but doesn't need to be over-tight; it should be relatively easy to turn with a screwdriver. An oiler might not always be strong enough for the task, though.
• The bits that adjust the effective length of the hairspring are regulation pins. On some watches these are just a pair of parallel pins while on others there is a single pin and a boot that turns through 90 degrees to either capture the hairspring in the narrow gap between pin and boot, or allow it come out. (You may know this, but you said "banking pin and the boot" instead of "regulation pin and the boot" above ... possibly just a slip.) The gap between pins or between pin and boot should be enough that it moves freely along the hairspring when the regulator is turned, and no more.

I haven't done the poising thing myself, yet, so this is not the voice of experience, but I wouldn't assume that just because a lot of mass has been removed from the balance that you'll need to add mass. If, after addressing hairspring issues, it's still running slow in horizontal positions with the regulator central you'll probably need to reduce more mass.

Finally, I wouldn't recommend your recleaning and lubricating the movement until you're happy with the whole escapement. Yes, if oils have moved around a bit it may affect your amplitude a bit, but you have already cleaned out old oil so that won't be gumming things up, you have already lubricated and most of that will still be doing its job and even if some pivots or the pallet stones are drier than they should be it won't substantially affect how freely the balance swings, it won't affect beat error and it won't affect poise. Get these right first otherwise you'll only have to redo the service yet again when you have.

[graemeW]

20 minutes ago, GPrideaux said:

This should, I think, take precedence over trying to adjust beat error or poise as it probably means an issue with the hairspring touching either an arm of the balance wheel or the balance cock. Also check for other stray fibres touching the balance ... I recently had a tiny black fibre caught between the barrel bridge and the mainplate in such a way that it touched the balance. It was so tiny that it was only visible with the microscope yet it made the difference in my free oscillation test between 40-odd oscillations and almost 140 oscillations (or, if you prefer, 16 seconds and 56 seconds) starting from a 180º swing.

Also, a few little vocabulary items, if I may:

• The pin in the middle of the pallet fork is the guard pin, not the guide pin
• The bit in the middle of the hairspring that holds it to the balance staff is the collet, not the collar (although collar is quite a good name for it, too, but it's non-standard). BTW, the collet should be tight enough that it can't slip, but doesn't need to be over-tight; it should be relatively easy to turn with a screwdriver. An oiler might not always be strong enough for the task, though.
• The bits that adjust the effective length of the hairspring are regulation pins. On some watches these are just a pair of parallel pins while on others there is a single pin and a boot that turns through 90 degrees to either capture the hairspring in the narrow gap between pin and boot, or allow it come out. (You may know this, but you said "banking pin and the boot" instead of "regulation pin and the boot" above ... possibly just a slip.) The gap between pins or between pin and boot should be enough that it moves freely along the hairspring when the regulator is turned, and no more.

I haven't done the poising thing myself, yet, so this is not the voice of experience, but I wouldn't assume that just because a lot of mass has been removed from the balance that you'll need to add mass. If, after addressing hairspring issues, it's still running slow in horizontal positions with the regulator central you'll probably need to reduce more mass.

Finally, I wouldn't recommend your recleaning and lubricating the movement until you're happy with the whole escapement. Yes, if oils have moved around a bit it may affect your amplitude a bit, but you have already cleaned out old oil so that won't be gumming things up, you have already lubricated and most of that will still be doing its job and even if some pivots or the pallet stones are drier than they should be it won't substantially affect how freely the balance swings, it won't affect beat error and it won't affect poise. Get these right first otherwise you'll only have to redo the service yet again when you have.

I am happy now that there are no issues with the movement. The escapement is all fine too. The hair spring is flat, level, and  not touching anything. 

My assumption at the moment is, like yours, I've introduces some contaminant or removed too much oil.

I have had the balance out a few times, and cleaned the pivots to check them, each time oil will be lost. I also haven't been using cots or paying any co moderation to contaminating it as I knew it would all need a final clean/service.

Maybe I'll clean and lubricate the balance to make sure I can get the free oscillation back before I commit to a final clean.

[nevenbekriev]

6 hours ago, graemeW said:

I am happy now that there are no issues with the movement. The escapement is all fine too. The hair spring is flat, level, and  not touching anything. 

My assumption at the moment is, like yours, I've introduces some contaminant or removed too much oil.

I have had the balance out a few times, and cleaned the pivots to check them, each time oil will be lost. I also haven't been using cots or paying any co moderation to contaminating it as I knew it would all need a final clean/service.

Maybe I'll clean and lubricate the balance to make sure I can get the free oscillation back before I commit to a final clean.

I am glad to see how You get to understand the escapement function and checking. The 2° of lock thing is just the lock when the drop happens (the drop lock) but measured by angles of rotation of the pallet fork, not in microns or as a part of the impulse plane length.

Now for the amplitude and free oscillations test - they are connected together. I doubt this is matter of contamination or lack of oil. First check and confirm that there is good axial free play. If it is not the problem, then I would try to burnish a little the balance pivots. This is another thing to learn how to do, but first what kind of lathe(s) You have?

[graemeW]

5 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

I am glad to see how You get to understand the escapement function and checking. The 2° of lock thing is just the lock when the drop happens (the drop lock) but measured by angles of rotation of the pallet fork, not in microns or as a part of the impulse plane length.

Now for the amplitude and free oscillations test - they are connected together. I doubt this is matter of contamination or lack of oil. First check and confirm that there is good axial free play. If it is not the problem, then I would try to burnish a little the balance pivots. This is another thing to learn how to do, but first what kind of lathe(s) You have?

The free play is good, side play too. I polished the pivots with a polishing pin, they look perfect. Last time I checked it free oscilatuons were 55 seconds and amplitude was 270. Nothing has changed since then which is why I figured it must be contaminant or lubricant issue.

[nevenbekriev]

See, the pivots must be a little thinner than the holes in the stones, some radial play must be there. There is an old theory that the oil has particles, called 'globules'. They are like little balls. The idea is that if there is no enough place on both sides between pivots and hole walls for this globules, they will stuck the movement of the balance. So, some 'healthy' radial play is needed.

What do You mean by pivot polishing and polishing pin? Burnishing is the standard procedure here, and the tool needed is burnisher.

There was something strange in You movement behavior - the amplitude was rising little by little in several days as I remember. This happens sometimes when the old hardened oil is not well cleaned, especially on the pallets and escape wheel teeth. But I doubt this is the case. The other reason for similar behavior is not enough radial play in balance pivots...

[praezis]

42 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

There is an old theory that the oil has particles, called 'globules'.

Sounds suspicously homeopathic.

[graemeW]

45 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

See, the pivots must be a little thinner than the holes in the stones, some radial play must be there. There is an old theory that the oil has particles, called 'globules'. They are like little balls. The idea is that if there is no enough place on both sides between pivots and hole walls for this globules, they will stuck the movement of the balance. So, some 'healthy' radial play is needed.

What do You mean by pivot polishing and polishing pin? Burnishing is the standard procedure here, and the tool needed is burnisher.

There was something strange in You movement behavior - the amplitude was rising little by little in several days as I remember. This happens sometimes when the old hardened oil is not well cleaned, especially on the pallets and escape wheel teeth. But I doubt this is the case. The other reason for similar behavior is not enough radial play in balance pivots...

I agree about something fishy going on. The amplitude has gone up more over the last day, it's up to 250 now. All I've done is let it run.

There is axial play between the pivot and jewel. It looks fine. I also believe you are right about the oil globules. All lubricants lubricate because of microscopic balls I believe. The balance play feels exactly the same as every other pivot. All the pivots have the same kind of play as all the other watches I've played with (only about 5 or 6 so far). But I think I have a decent grasp of what would be too little, or too much.

I don't think there is any old oil left, I've cleaned it many times. It's all been in IPA, ultrasonic cleaned in IPA, cleaned in lighter fluid, pegged (made 100% sure the pegwood went right through the holes), inspected under high magnification under the microscope. All the jewels and pivots are perfectly clean and shiny.

The polishing pins are a fine abrasive loaded into a silicone stick. You use them like pith wood, poke the pivot in and rotate the stick. I don't have the tools to burnish them properly although I could maybe rig something up.

 

You asked about lathes, my lathes are far too big really. I have a 13" swing fortis lathe that could never tackle this stuff. I also have a 7" swing Drummond. This is 113 years old! It's still way too big, but I have made parts in it about the size of a pocket watch barrel arbor. Not sure I could rig it to burnish pivots though.

What I could do though is make something along the lines of a jacot tool if I really needed to. 

11 minutes ago, praezis said:

Sounds suspicously homeopathic.

Maybe we should move away from moebius and towards essential oils

[nevenbekriev]

1 hour ago, praezis said:

Sounds suspicously homeopathic.

It was in an article in some american watchmakers magazine from 2th century beginning. It was about balance staff turning, using shellac chuck and claiming the jacot tool is useless and making no good

[graemeW]

I hate this watch.

Cleaned it all, built the train. Runs super free. A puff of air spins the whole train including the barrel.

Put the balance in without the fork, 58 seconds of free oscillation from 180 degree release. Fantastic.

Pallet fork back in and it's snapping lovely.

Balance back in, left it running for a few hours, 230°. Beat error is 0.3, speed can be set to zero with the regulator.

Push the barrel edge a bit and it goes up to over 300°. I'm sure it's a spring/barrel/arbor issue.

But, every time I even slightly adjust a screw of move a cock by the tiniest fraction, everything changes.

I am beginning to think I need to forget this watch until I have more experience. It has a problem that I'm just not knowledgeable enough to spot.

I'll do a few others and come back to this. 

Edited February 2 by graemeW