Illinois Watch Case Co. (not a typo) movement identification

[BirdNerd]

Hello,

I hope someone can help me with some info on this movement.  As you can see in the pictures, it says "Illinois Watch Case Co." on both the dial and movement.  Knowing they didn't make or have their name on any movements (that I know of, anyway), I was intrigued and picked it up cheap.  I have not been able to find any info on the web at all.

It is a seven jewel lever set hunter movement, size 16s, serial number 3001624.  The 'engraving' appears to be stamped or cast, rather than cut, when viewed under high magnification.  There do not appear to be any other marks on it other than what is in the photos, but I have not torn into it yet to know if there is anything hidden.

I'm guessing it is a 'Swiss fake', but any information would be appreciated.  Anyone seen on of these before?

Thanks!

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, BirdNerd said:

I'm guessing it is a 'Swiss fake',

yes it kind of has that Swiss look to it. Plus of course Swiss early on really did like counterfeiting American watches so that's just kind of the vibe I'm getting from it.

Then the pocket watch database has interesting history of the case company. Interesting company that rather liked copying other people's names.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/case-companies/illinois-watch-case-co

 

[BirdNerd]

Yes, I had read that!  Guess I was hoping maybe it was some rare movement they only made a few of... .  Given their history, it would be a good choice for making a fake using their name - a little 'payback'.

 

[mbwatch]

Some aspects of this do look American - the movable banking pins for example I don't think you would find on a Swiss movement ever, especially not one of the "fakes". And the structure of the lever set keyless is really American looking. That makes me lean more toward a private label run for the case company than Swiss fake, but I don't recognize the bridge layout and that does look a little bit Swiss.

I am going to flip through the photos in American Watchmaking by Michael Harrold to see if I can spot a similar one.

Actually, I spotted an auction for a Waltham model 1888 with the same layout you have there. Scrolling through all the variations of the 1888's none has an exact bridge match but a lot are close, with a little more pointy bit between the ratchet wheel.

My bet is you have a Waltham private label, even if it isn't an 1888. Though it would be less surprising to see an Illinois private label for the Illinois Case Co. The only thing is, your serial number doesn't match for Waltham in PWDB.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/company/waltham/model/16s/model-1888/images

[rjenkinsgb]

This appears to be the same movement with a different brand name?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144638137532

 

[AndyGSi]

3 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

This appears to be the same movement with a different brand name?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144638137532

 

Interesting that Advance was an Elgin brand.

[rjenkinsgb]

The serial number on the ebay one comes up as a Waltham grade 20; those appear to have been made with various bridge shapes.

The OPs serial does not match any make I've tried it against.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/7418698

 

[mbwatch]

I believe the "Advance" relation to Elgin is that an early 18 size grade was labeled or named "Advance". This seems different.

24 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

This appears to be the same movement with a different brand name?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144638137532

Nice find. The name "Advance" does not show up in the Harrold book, though every small time American manufacturer does.

The set lever does not really look like Waltham. Lots of small American companies were born and died quickly between 1870 and 1900. I'm wondering if any of them operated more as an "OEM." The actual Illinois watch company of Springfield was prolific in doing private label runs, but nothing about this watch resembles an Illinois at all.

[tomh207]

Isn’t the safety pinion engraving indicative of an American manufacturer?

 

Tom

[mbwatch]

4 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Isn’t the safety pinion engraving indicative of an American manufacturer?

Yes but it is also exactly the kind of thing that would get stamped onto a Swiss Fake to mislead buyers. (I still don't think that's what this is)

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Isn’t the safety pinion engraving indicative of an American manufacturer?

yes definitely that's a US terminology. Plus the letters F and  S on the balance bridge versus the way the Swiss with market. Then the location United States of America would indicate definitely something?

Oh did you read the description of the company on the pocket watch database at the link found above someplace? A really interesting company they like the name Illinois but they really liked another name much better which was this one Elgin Nation Watch Case Company.  then it does appear a spelling mistake and I copied and pasted. Unfortunately for them the Elgin national watch company did see it as a innocent mistake and took legal action. At some point in time a judge said you can't do this but don't worry they really like Elgin and used in a whole bunch of their other products.

11 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

The OPs serial does not match any make I've tried it against

this definitely brings up a problem?

20 hours ago, mbwatch said:

My bet is you have a Waltham private label,

this also brings up a problem of serial numbers. The problem with this theory is Waltham has serial numbers and even a private label will have a serial number and this serial number isn't right for the watch.

11 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

The serial number on the ebay one comes up as a Waltham grade 20

I'm having a confusion here the watch on eBay the serial number 3027654 is what I was reading and it comes back as a grade 15 which is an 18 size full plate pocket watch. But what I find interesting is the serial number in this discussion is 3001624  which comes back as a grade 25 also 18 size full plate. So whoever manufactured these at least the serial number is changing. The reason I point out serial number changing is I have seen some watches where Princeton somewhere I have a movement that I looked up the serial number just googling it and somebody else was auctioning my watch off with the exact same serial number. But here the serial number changes and even put it on the plate side. So it does appear to be a small production run.

12 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

he serial number on the ebay one comes up as a Waltham grade 20; those appear to have been made with various bridge shapes.

The OPs serial does not match any make I've tried it against.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/7418698

and have a can confusion with the quote above except I really like the link. In fact I like the link so much let's go to the wall from parts catalog four 1888 which is the model of this watch. I'm guessing that what we have is a clone of the 1888 and this is not Waltham yes the Swiss like to clone watches and annoy the Americans.

So parts catalog image on top of the watch of this discussion and the watch off of eBay where they actually look quite similar at least of the things we can see. There does appear to be typical Waltham lots of variations lots of different balance bridges quantity of jewels the plating used typical Waltham lots of variations. then the mystery watch has some minor problems versus the original. Only one case screw. Waltham screwed up they don't mention safety pinion and I can't find a reference to that the parts listing. The crown wheel is interesting here there's one large screw and Waltham uses an insert with a smaller screw. But there is something else that would be a real giveaway as I doubt somebody would clone this aspect especially when it's not visible.

so I need another photograph from @BirdNerd based on the images you already have it looks like you'll have to remove the two case screws and then remove the dust ring. I need a picture of side view showing the mainspring barrel. to understand what were looking at one unlikely to find a standard brass colored mainspring barrel versus the mainspring barrels that are supposed to be found in a watch of this grade which I pasted below. I find it extremely unlikely somebody cloning watches would clone the barrel itself. that has also trying to find a picture of the dial side of this watch like on eBay but conveniently everybody has their dials on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BirdNerd]

Thanks for all the discussion!  I'm new to all of this, so it is really helpful to hear about all of the things to consider.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

so I need another photograph from @BirdNerd

Here it is:

Doesn't look like steel to me, unless they gilded it

Let me know if any other views or photos of particular parts would help

[rjenkinsgb]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm having a confusion here the watch on eBay the serial number 3027654 is what I was reading and it comes back as a grade 15 which is an 18 size full plate

Oops... Auto-compete filled in the wrong serial number without me noticing. The 7xx number must be one I've researched in the past.

Apologies for that!

 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, rjenkinsgb said:

Oops... Auto-compete filled in the wrong serial number without me noticing. The 7xx number must be one I've researched in the past.

Apologies for that!

thanks for the clarification but to be honest I was guessing that that's what was going on. You did the hard work of checking the serial number against everything I only checked it against Elgin and Waltham and could see it was definitely wrong. plus the watch that you did find that is look remarkably like the one that we have here you did the hard work.

5 hours ago, BirdNerd said:

Doesn't look like steel to me, unless they gilded it

and yes that's definitely not a steel barrel. Even if it was plated which I've never seen they visually do not look the same there very different in the construction so it's very clearly not a Waltham watch.

But that we do come back to the problem of what is it? The pocket watch database suffers from the problem of using parts books to identify watches which has lots of problems. the biggest problem of using parts books for identification is that the same parts can go in different watches it have different values. Then so many watch companies didn't exist long enough to even have a parts book. But we do have lots of books out there that identify all the American companies even ones that run business for limited quantity of time. So looking at the reference material I have at hand I can't find this company but this still a couple other places I was thinking of checking.

Nine so no matter what we do have an interesting watch that no matter what currently only two of them appear to be in existence I wonder how many more these exist? I suppose I could done the math with the serial numbers we could probably guess usually by even numbers of when they started and when they ended.

then there is the very very tiny possibility of a makers mark appearing somewhere else on the watch. I once saw a really nice small ladies cylinder watch that had no market anywhere that I remember except when it was disassembled it was marked on the main plate under one of the bridges. or last week a full plate American pocket watch that has the patent date in other words before patent numbers they put dates on things all nicely spelled out on the main plate where you can't see it as it's a full plate watch and it's hiding. Which I always find interesting things that are hidden?

 

 

what's interesting with fake watches are there supposed to be cheap imitations of something. The only thing that this appears to be a fake version is a fake were version of a Waltham movement but not a Waltham watch as otherwise it would've said Waltham. I'm wondering if probably in Switzerland may be one of the counterfeiting companies may be branched out and made other watches maybe for other people that they could purchase an important put their name on. Then of course there is the likelihood of some very tiny American watch company perhaps. In any case here is talking about Swiss fake watches.

 

https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Encyclopedia-Subjects/European-Pocket-Watches/Swiss-Fake

 

[BirdNerd]

I will take it apart tomorrow and see if I can find any hidden marks.  It has turned out to be much more interesting than I expected...

 

[JohnR725]

a little more research of the mystery and mystery continues. I was looking at the national Association of watch and clock collector bulletin index for Swiss fake. There weren't any articles which I found strange but in their question section there were three articles or three questions and only one of mad anything really relevant. So I snipped out how you're supposed billets health is a Swiss fake. But it does bring up the problem again of this isn't a counterfeit or fake of a brand that we know of it appears to be a watch with its own name.

so basically when you go through the list it's not clear cut for this watch. Like number two typically Swiss watches have two dial feet and this one has three like you would typically find on an American pocket watch. Number three is interesting in that they're telling us that at least the early Swiss watches were not mass-produced they were handmade which is why the scribe marks would be on the dial site. This watch looks to be mass made and since we have two watches are basically identical obviously they were made in a factory not laid out by hand.

Number five the reference to the balance jewels made me go back and look and this watch definitely has strange balance jewels. Usually the American pocket watches would have two screws to hold the setting in this watch has zero screws? It almost gives the impression of this watch being later than whatever we think it is supposed to be. 

 

[mbwatch]

Number 6 - the balance is cut all the way through, visible zooming in.

That balance jewel reminds me a bit of the appearance of the fake glass bead jewels used on some Seth Thomas watches. Though I think those still had screws. I wonder if this is a fake cap jewel pushed in on top of a steel bushing that serves as the actual balance bearing , and instead of 7 jewels it turns out to be just like 3 for the roller and pallets.

I still lean very much towards this is an American made watch, and will be very interested to see what the inside looks like. The keyless are a little rustic looking and overall this movement has the look of a low end manufacture (despite the close layout resemblance to Waltham models)

Looking forward to disassembly pictures

[BirdNerd]

Well, It turns out the balance jewels are real, so it is a 7-jewel movement, though the settings are pushed in and not secured with screws anywhere.  The picture of the underside of the balance bridge doesn't show the jewel itself very well.  The only other marks on the plates are related to the serial number: repeated on the bottom of the train bridge, '624' on the balance bridge, and a '4' on the pallet bridge. The balance has 'Ball' written on one arm and '624' on the other - don't know if that is of any significance. The serial number shows 'out of range' when I checked the database under Ball (as rjenkinsgb no doubt saw). Hopefully these help narrow down the possibilities!

[mbwatch]

"Ball" ... for "Ballance" obviously 

Definitely nothing about this watch says "Ball" (who by the way didn't make their own movements as far as I know - they put their name on other companies' watches)

That pallet fork is very rustic and the holes in the plate look barely circular. The balance cock matches the serial on the plates though.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, mbwatch said:

Definitely nothing about this watch says "Ball" (who by the way didn't make their own movements as far as I know - they put their name on other companies' watches)

yes the famous ball watch company that never made their own watches. but in the early days when bowl was purchasing American pocket watches they were big in the railroad timekeeping. So anything they purchased would've been a 21 jewel railroad grade watch and typically they change the model numbers for ball. So occasionally end up with discussions on groups of which part should I use because the numbers different.

that I'm going to go through the pictures backwards as I scroll up at the pictures. Mainspring I assume it's been changed because it does not look blue in color?

The pallet fork looks very primitive. Plus it's for a single roller versus the newer double roller. the other thing of interest is it's not shiny it's not polished when was the last time you saw an American pocket watch with a non-polished pallet fork? It's always interesting things that they polishing finish that you can't see.

then the center wheel does look like maybe it's a safety version. you usually don't see the threads on the shaft itself. bbut it does give the impression that the pinion is attached rather than being machined as one piece.

then the balance jewels those are very strange. Everybody else is using screws for quite some time and hear a company has no screws at all.

1 hour ago, BirdNerd said:

The balance has 'Ball' written on one arm and '624' on the other - don't know if that is of any significance. The serial number shows 'out of range' when I checked the database under Ball (as rjenkinsgb no doubt saw). Hopefully these help narrow down the possibilities!

I don't think I've ever seen a name on a balance wheel. Typically it's the serial number either the full number of partial number. Then of course it would never be a ball balance wheel anyway. It's not shiny enough is not a double roller and it was definitely not made for railroad grade watch.

So yes it is a very interesting watch with three dial feet which it would apply US-made. I suppose somebody gets to do a lot of research now like when did safety pinions exist and when did they go out of existence. Like the Waltham watch doesn't indicate that it has a safety pinion that this watch appears to resemble.Then jewels that are pressed in without screws they don't come until much later on and I think the references I have or basically wristwatches. Serial numbers on all the parts sets common when you're manufacturing everything together. then the other thing is when did 16 size pocket watches go out of focus?

6 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I still lean very much towards this is an American made watch, and will be very interested to see what the inside looks like. The keyless are a little rustic looking and overall this movement has the look of a low end manufacture (despite the close layout resemblance to Waltham models)

in yesterday's search for information on fake watches apparently Waltham was the most common counterfeited watch. But this watch isn't really made like a counterfeit. Yes it definitely looks like a low-end manufacturing plus newer manufacturing. But with the single roller would imply something more vintage.

it's definitely a very strange watch with its mix of old and new. With vintage of American manufacturing like putting serial numbers on everything. But unfinished pallet fork bridge in the pressed in jewels. Just a weird mix of things and then was thinking about something? So it back to the pocket watch database and we get this Years of Operation: 1888-1956. So we have an extremely large company manufacturing pocket watch cases what if they acquired an American watch company. Normally starting up to produce your own watches was very expensive and very complicated but seeing as how sizable part of their business occurred after 1900. The reason I bring that up is I have a book reference down below which is really interesting. So he basically lists all of the American watch companies which of course I looked this company is not listed.

in section 1 of the book he has something very interesting towards the bottom so they basically indicates an American watch companies entirely made their watches in America with only a few minor parts purchased elsewhere. Then the reference to some American companies purchased watches from other places but he does not consider them American. Which of course means they would not be in the book. Then he also brings up there were also a number of foreign companies which copied American watches and sold them as American products he considers these fake Americans. Also commenting that sometimes they went so far as to copy the American names and town on the watches. So he considers these fake Americans. But he also makes a reference at the very end that they make for a very interesting collection. Which is why was a bit bewildered by yesterday's search sudden find more information on fake American watches.

So what if the pocket watch databases right that this an extremely large company making watch cases what if they acquired an American watch factory? But after 1900 because this book doesn't actually say when he researched in other words whether or American pocket watch is dying out? So they acquired a company that went out of business they conceivably would still manufactured the way the company originally manufactured then either purchasing or upgrading things like the pallet fork which looks pretty rough keeping the single roller because that's what the originally the company had and acquiring pressed in jewels that occur much much later in time.

https://www.amazon.com/Almost-Everything-Wanted-American-Watches/dp/9996765547

 

 

 

one of things I'm wondering about is even though we have a mix of old and new I'd have to track down where my books on pocket watches I suppose it's possible that some company oh? I forgot we do have a time reference on the history of the pocketwatch database we find that the case company . Plus it was an extremely large company making a heck of a lot of cases so what if they acquired a watch company? Maybe they did make the watch. you look at most of the history of American pocket watches doesn't really cover the later history. So if they acquired a company making the watches like they once were made with serial numbers on everything but you have manufacturing or purchasing the pallet fork and

 

[BirdNerd]

There is another movement listed on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/316028631404

This also has the name 'Advance', and the serial is 3002900.

[BirdNerd]

So, barring additional info, we really don't know what we have   Lots of possibilities; maybe at some point someone will find some paperwork in an attic that will fill in the gaps.  And maybe others will have some info in the next few days, too.

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

what if they acquired an American watch factory?

It does sound like that is a distinct possibility - with all of the changes of ownership of factories, I could see where records could be lost, especially if the venture didn't last very long.

I appreciate all of the time everyone has put into analyzing this movement, especially JohnR725 - mysteries are fun, even if the outcome is less than satisfying.  I will have a much more critical eye going forward after all of the discussion!  Since this movement was running, I will go ahead and clean it and case it as the novelty it is.  Guess I will have to try to find a 16 Illinois Case Company case now...

Cheers,

Mike

[JohnR725]

9 hours ago, BirdNerd said:

I will have a much more critical eye going forward after all of the discussion! 

this is one of the things that I find interesting in a discussion group which is everybody's looking at something different. We all have different experiences were all looking at different things. I always find it interesting the things that I hadn't noticed. Like it was until I saw that the balance jewels and I went back and looked and realized oh these are definitely very strange but that just wasn't what I was looking at initially. So group discussions are nice because everybody sees something different and together we see the entire watch.

9 hours ago, BirdNerd said:

Guess I will have to try to find a 16 Illinois Case Company case now...

that was something I was going to ask about because I was wondering where the case was? American pocket watch cases are quite interesting in that originally the pocket watch movement was separate a purchased a separate case for it. That often times over the years when the case wore out or for whatever reason the movement moved to different case. Then unfortunately anything resembling precious metals gets melted down and the movement is left without its case. as I wasn't paying attention to the one on eBay did it have a case?

9 hours ago, BirdNerd said:

It does sound like that is a distinct possibility - with all of the changes of ownership of factories, I could see where records could be lost, especially if the venture didn't last very long.

what's interesting is if you look at the reference material for American pocket watches they do a really good job of keeping track of all of the companies. Even little tiny companies I have a watch from a company that was in business I think two years. But as you move into the 1900s history of companies including even companies like Elgin a lot of stuff they did just slides in the radar because nobody was paying attention. basically sometimes it's easier to research a company from the 1800s because are so much material of verses later on where as I said people just weren't paying attention.

 

[BirdNerd]

None of the movements had cases with them.  I even contacted one of the sellers on ebay to see if they might have any information on the Advance movement they had listed, but it was purchased at an estate sale and a dead end.  I am going to keep an eye out for these movements and maybe I will get lucky and fond out something more.

 

[JohnR725]

19 hours ago, BirdNerd said:

even if the outcome is less than satisfying

thinking about this? Yesterday I was in my gathering phase I'm really good at gathering I don't always go back to process. I have access to a newspaper archives was going through looking for anything on the Illinois case company. Unfortunately nothing on watches but I guess it just depends on how satisfied you would be with bits and pieces of detail of the company?

one of the annoying things would looking to newspaper archives is if there's a press release then all these newspapers basically have the exact same article. As you're going to the list you'll see a particular date and realize oh that's that and not even look at it where it's always conceivable that somebody might include some other detailed than what everyone else had because typically they just report whatever they were handed.

But at least I did find the company existed one day the stockholders voted the change their name and yes the word Elgin was in the name. Or the employees went on strike. Probably the biggest one though was the theft. But as I was in the gathering boat I didn't really read the fine details I just find the article save the entire page and I'll go back and look at it later and if you're interested I'll snip out the theft. As it was mustard and quite expensive I wonder if they had insurance?

but I was kinda hoping for a advertisement of selling one of their watches and I didn't see any such thing and I didn't see any articles on were going to make watches in addition to cases.