Seiko 6309 or slava 2427

[graemeW]

I am going to take a break from the 1917 watch. I have quite a few watches, some big projects, some hopefully not. I would like to get something serviced so I have a reliable daily watch. The 2 best candidates I have for this are a seiko 6309 and a slava 2427.

The seiko I bought as working, recently serviced. It wouldn't wind though. Sent it back and the seller serviced it again and found a piece was missing from the automatic works that he had left out the first time. It came back and was working but soon started running slow. Its fully + on the regulator, looses 5-10 mins a day. Low amplitude too, about 150 if my app is to be trusted. New main spring and service again maybe?

The slava I bought as an unknown but running watch. It gains about 1 min a day but. The winder never feels any different, just keeps winding. It does wind the watch though. The automatic works does also wind the watch. It stopped overnight though after wearing it all day. I'm assuming either weak main springs, or they are slipping. So when worn the auto works keeps it topped up maybe. This also has low amplitude. 

 

I've not worked on either of these 2 movements but i need an easy win. Which would you suspect to be the easiest one to tackle? This old trench watch has somewhat knocked my fledgling confidence. I have stripped automatic calender watches before, but they were full of broken parts, so although they went back together fine, I never got to see them run.

Pics for no reason other than I assume we all like pictures of watches

Edited January 25 by graemeW

[AndyGSi]

Both nice watches but I'd go for the Seiko being the simplest due to the double barrel and quickset date on the Slava.

[graemeW]

3 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Both nice watches but I'd go for the Seiko being the simplest due to the double barrel and quickset date on the Slava.

I was leaning that way as the slava works well enough to use for now. Slava feels like a better made thing though.

[Malocchio]

Seiko 6309 is a very simple movement for an automatic day/date. No little springs. The problem might be that many people have tampered with that particular movement and the previous owner couldn't get it right. Someone might have "adjusted" the pallet jewels or hairspring and made everything worse, even beyond repair. Spare parts (used) are luckily plentiful and cheap. 6309 is a great movement for a beginner.

[graemeW]

3 minutes ago, Malocchio said:

Seiko 6309 is a very simple movement for an automatic day/date. No little springs. The problem might be that many people have tampered with that particular movement and the previous owner couldn't get it right. Someone might have "adjusted" the pallet jewels or hairspring and made everything worse, even beyond repair. Spare parts (used) are luckily plentiful and cheap. 6309 is a great movement for a beginner.

I'm hoping that's not the case, but I'll see. The seller was a watchmaker, but they did manage to leave a part out of the auto works!

When they sent it back to me they advised it might be wise to fit a new spring.

To be clear, the watch was cheap enough. Because it was sold as working, and wasn't, the subsequent full strip, check and relube was free. Seller went above and beyond to be honest.

It does wind just fine now. I wore it for a week over which time it gradually slowed. Amplitude was always low, but I believe it's not that high on 6309 to start with.

I'll take it apart tomorrow before I order a mainspring just in case it needs anything else. May as well order springs for the slava too I guess.

I'm also aware that the holes for the barrel wears on these seikos, so if quite like to check that too.

Hope it's ok as I love this watch. I bought it for something reliable to wear while I mess with the antique watches, but it's not quite worked out like that

[AndyGSi]

3 hours ago, graemeW said:

I'm also aware that the holes for the barrel wears on these seikos, so if quite like to check that too.

Another problem is the bearing on the rotor so this may have something to do with the lack of power.

[graemeW]

7 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Another problem is the bearing on the rotor so this may have something to do with the lack of power.

I pushed the rotor round with my finger for a while the other day and the bearing felt smooth and quiet. Well, smooth and quiet enough for me to not be concerned. 

[AndyGSi]

Just now, graemeW said:

I pushed the rotor round with my finger for a while the other day and the bearing felt smooth and quiet. Well, smooth and quiet enough for me to not be concerned. 

How level is it as you rotate, any signs of a wobble?

[GPrideaux]

7 hours ago, graemeW said:

Amplitude was always low, but I believe it's not that high on 6309 to start with.

From what I've read (and my limited experience agrees), Seiko watches generally are designed to have amplitude lower than you would expect from a Swiss watch, but maintain that amplitude consistent for 24+ hours. If you've got over 200º 24 hours after a full wind I would conclude there's not much to be concerned about even if it only gets to, say, 240º when first wound. I have a tiny Seiko 1104A that got to 270º on a full wind after service, but a 6105 averaged around 210º fully wound and an older 6217 got to about 260º. All of these vintage watches run well and keep good time despite their low amplitude.

[graemeW]

3 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

How level is it as you rotate, any signs of a wobble?

No wobble that I noticed, but I wasn't looking for it at the time.

18 minutes ago, GPrideaux said:

From what I've read (and my limited experience agrees), Seiko watches generally are designed to have amplitude lower than you would expect from a Swiss watch, but maintain that amplitude consistent for 24+ hours. If you've got over 200º 24 hours after a full wind I would conclude there's not much to be concerned about even if it only gets to, say, 240º when first wound. I have a tiny Seiko 1104A that got to 270º on a full wind after service, but a 6105 averaged around 210º fully wound and an older 6217 got to about 260º. All of these vintage watches run well and keep good time despite their low amplitude.

I think the amplitude was around 150, I'll wind it and check before I take it apart though. Not having manual wind is a bit of a pain.

[GPrideaux]

3 minutes ago, graemeW said:

Not having manual wind is a bit of a pain.

Yes, I know. You can wind it with a screwdriver once you open the back. Obviously not an everyday solution but it's what you need to do when working on it. Take extra care letting down the mainspring! Do it perhaps half a turn at a time, and let the click back in after each half-turn, otherwise one slip and it will all unwind at once. Ask me how I know! Fortunately my spring, barrel and arbor survived the experience, but I wouldn't want to count on that.

If you don't have the technical manual for this movement yet, you can find a scan at https://www.thewatchsite.com/threads/seiko-calibers-technical-repair-manuals.15/.

[graemeW]

I have decided against doing one of these next as there is little point without the main springs. I have ordered new springs for both and will look at these next weekend I think. I've ordered parts for 2 other watches too, a KNACKERED roamer and a nice buren.

In the mean time I guess I'll persevere with the 1917 watch.

[JohnL]

I happen to be working on a Slava 2427 at the moment. The springs on the balance jewels are similar to those on a Vostok and others, but are smaller. They may also have shorter arms. I've got the knack of those on the Vostok, but the ones on the Slava were quite fiddly. The mainspring barrels are obviously smaller than most- 7mm if memory serves. Finding an appropriate winder may be problematic.  Balance pivots are apparently more fragile than most. They also apparently have a reputation for issues around the alternative canon pinion and wear between the rotor arm and it's axle. When it comes to assembly there are a couple of instances where a screw does two jobs - eg holding down the end of the bridge for the escape wheel and the centre sweep second and the end of the automatic bridge.

[graemeW]

50 minutes ago, JohnL said:

I happen to be working on a Slava 2427 at the moment. The springs on the balance jewels are similar to those on a Vostok and others, but are smaller. They may also have shorter arms. I've got the knack of those on the Vostok, but the ones on the Slava were quite fiddly. The mainspring barrels are obviously smaller than most- 7mm if memory serves. Finding an appropriate winder may be problematic.  Balance pivots are apparently more fragile than most. They also apparently have a reputation for issues around the alternative canon pinion and wear between the rotor arm and it's axle. When it comes to assembly there are a couple of instances where a screw does two jobs - eg holding down the end of the bridge for the escape wheel and the centre sweep second and the end of the automatic bridge.

Thanks for the heads up.

I won't need spring wonders hopefully, got new springs.

Ill be careful with thebpivots and shock settings and tale my time making sure I understand how it goes together.

I'm hoping wear isn't an issue. Firstly, the watch is perfect. Not a mark or scratch on it. It's like new. I'm hoping that means it wasn't worn much and therefore hadn't been used much.

Secondly, although it's down on amplitude, it's very steady. Currently about 1min a day fast, but it is always that. It's reliable, just wrong.

 

When it's it pieces and I'm completely lost, I'll give you a shout . Kidding, I'm sure it will be fine.

[JohnL]

You might also take care not to try drying the balance wheel and hairspring in front of a fan heater 

[graemeW]

1 hour ago, JohnL said:

You might also take care not to try drying the balance wheel and hairspring in front of a fan heater 

Noted

I'm looking forward to doing it I like the watch more than I expected I would. I mean I liked it's or I wouldn't have bought it. But I'm liking it more and more.

Let me know what numbers you get out of it so I know what to aim at with mine.

[JohnL]

Mine was a almost a complete non-runner. Couldn't be wound from the stem. Barely ticking when wound with a screwdriver (I think it's necessary to wind the ratchet wheels, and they're anti-clockwise so after a few turns will loosen the screw) Filthy, filthy dirty. Setting lever spring is broken, the yoke is almost worn completely through where it rests on the sliding clutch. Rotor and axle as loose as can be, a bent pinion on the centre second sweep etc. Dial face isn't great etc. Yet, for some reason, I want to get it running again. For the moment it's get the core running and keeping time, then decide whether to continue.

Pictures: Without calendar and day, Without automatic works and the yoke. 

[graemeW]

Looks like some of my pre 1930 watches!

[GPrideaux]

17 hours ago, JohnL said:

Eek! I'm trying to imagine how many times a watch would need to be wound, and what kind of abrasive there must have been present, for the sliding clutch to wear that much of the yoke away.

[AndyGSi]

17 minutes ago, GPrideaux said:

Eek! I'm trying to imagine how many times a watch would need to be wound, and what kind of abrasive there must have been present, for the sliding clutch to wear that much of the yoke away.

That's how it should look so it doesn't contact the clutch when winding.

[JohnL]

1 hour ago, AndyGSi said:

That's how it should look so it doesn't contact the clutch when winding.

Really? I haven't worked on a Slava before, and the amount of black gunk that was around the keyless works, and everywhere else, the rust, the threads wrapped around the winding stem that made me think of someone knitting going: "knit one, pearl one, drop one", and everything else, made me convinced it had been worn. Or are you, if you'll pardon me, winding me up?

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, JohnL said:

Really? I haven't worked on a Slava before, and the amount of black gunk that was around the keyless works, and everywhere else, the rust, the threads wrapped around the winding stem that made me think of someone knitting going: "knit one, pearl one, drop one", and everything else, made me convinced it had been worn. Or are you, if you'll pardon me, winding me up?

Presuming were talking about the 'missing' part in the photo below then
it maybe a little worn but from what I've seen, nothing out of the ordinary.

I've been trying to find a photo of a new part but will continue looking tonight.

[JohnL]

2 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

I've been trying to find a photo of a new part but will continue looking tonight.

Don't do that. It's good to know that's not unusual. Thank you very much for even considering going to that effort. Extremely thoughtful and helpful of you, but not necessary at all.