Holes in dial of Galonne pocket watch

[stm]

Hi,

in the inheritance of my father this "Galonne" pocket watch surfaced. I assume it's from the first half of the 20th century, and probably it originally belonged to my grandfather.

The movement is not working and I will try to service it, but what is also interesting is the dial. There are two holes in it at 2 o'clock and 8 o'clock. I wonder how this kind of damage could have be caused. I don't see any debris from the holes, so I assume that the watch was opened and it was removed. Maybe the watch was dropped and the glass smashed, and the glass was replaced.

Is there any technique to fill these holes in the dial ? I wouldn't aim for a high end reconstruction, just an unobtrusive filling of the holes.

And what material is that dial made of? Could that be ivory?

Thanks

Stephan

[RichardHarris123]

It's an enamel dial.  A brass / copper plate with an enamel coating. Looks like the enamel is chipped where the dial feet are. 

It's a cylinder escapement and I  suspect that the balance staff is broken.  

[AndyGSi]

You can get dial repair kits or just the enamel but probably best trying it out on another old dial if you decide to give it a go.

[RichardHarris123]

I have read that you can use nail polish, with something to colour it. Getting a good match will be difficult. 

[stm]

22 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

It's an enamel dial.  A brass / copper plate with an enamel coating. Looks like the enamel is chipped where the dial feet are. 

It's a cylinder escapement and I  suspect that the balance staff is broken.  

Thanks for pointing out the material of the dial.

I will disassemble the movement and check the balance staff.

[mbwatch]

On 1/29/2025 at 2:51 PM, stm said:

I wonder how this kind of damage could have be caused.

It doesn't look like anyone addressed this directly. Damage like this to enamel dials is common, almost ubiquitous in watches that have taken a hard drop. The dial attaches to the movement with usually copper wire "feet" - the tips of which are visible in the missing enamel holes. When the watch is dropped then the dial feet will either flex horizontally or be pushed up or vertically and dump some of that energy right into the enamel, which shatters where it contacts the dial feet. They may bend a little dimple into the brass dial too.

And Richard suggested checking the balance staff because a drop strong enough to have done this to the enamel almost certainly will break the staff too. Or at least bend the pivots.

[stm]

On 1/31/2025 at 3:52 PM, mbwatch said:

It doesn't look like anyone addressed this directly. Damage like this to enamel dials is common, almost ubiquitous in watches that have taken a hard drop. The dial attaches to the movement with usually copper wire "feet" - the tips of which are visible in the missing enamel holes. When the watch is dropped then the dial feet will either flex horizontally or be pushed up or vertically and dump some of that energy right into the enamel, which shatters where it contacts the dial feet. They may bend a little dimple into the brass dial too.

Your assessment is correct. I now have begun to disassemble the watch, and on the back of the dial are the dial feet exactly at the positions where the damage is visible on the front side (see photos).

On 1/31/2025 at 3:52 PM, mbwatch said:

And Richard suggested checking the balance staff because a drop strong enough to have done this to the enamel almost certainly will break the staff too. Or at least bend the pivots.

After a first inspection I think the balance staff could be ok, but I'm not yet sure about that.

Edited February 3 by stm
Typo

[mbwatch]

30 minutes ago, stm said:

After a first inspection I think the balance staff could be ok, but I'm not yet sure about that.

It should be pretty easy to tell. If you grab it with tweezers gently, it should not move vertically or horizontally (not more than an imperceptible 0.01-0.02mm) and be able to rotate. If it can wiggle around at all, it is probably broken.

[stm]

23 hours ago, mbwatch said:

It should be pretty easy to tell. If you grab it with tweezers gently, it should not move vertically or horizontally (not more than an imperceptible 0.01-0.02mm) and be able to rotate. If it can wiggle around at all, it is probably broken.

I inspected the pivots with a loupe, and they look good. The balance does not move in any perceptible way in the bearing in the movement, and when I stimulate it with a blower it seems to rotate back and forth as expected.

[RichardHarris123]

Photos of the pivots.

[stm]

32 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Photos of the pivots.

It was somewhat difficult to take a focussed image of the pivots with the smartphone. I attached an image of one of the pivots where I held a piece of paper behind to get it focussed almost properly. I was not able to get a reasonable photo of the other pivot because it was not possible to get it into focus through the hairspring. But when I look at the other pivot through a loupe I would say it looks the same as the one in the phote.

[RichardHarris123]

With the balance removed, does the wheel train move freely? 

[stm]

4 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

With the balance removed, does the wheel train move freely? 

Yes it does. The remaining tension of the main spring even rotated the escape wheel slowly after I had removed the balance.

[RichardHarris123]

If so, then the problem is the interplay between the balance and the escape wheel. 

[mbwatch]

10 minutes ago, stm said:

The remaining tension of the main spring even rotated the escape wheel slowly

When the balance is removed, It should ideally spin through the escape wheel very quickly, with no real resistance. And if possible, the escape wheel should rebound, reversing direction briefly when the mainspring unwinds to its end. If you see a slowly rotating or sputtering escape wheel, there is an issue in the train such as dirty pivots, bent pivots, dirty jewels/bearings, dirty pinion leaves.

[stm]

1 minute ago, RichardHarris123 said:

If so, then the problem is the interplay between the balance and the escape wheel. 

Sorry, I'm confused. Why do you think that there is actually a problem with the balance? @mbwatch suspected that there might be a problem with the balance staff because of the damage on the dial, but so far I didn't see anything that actually looks broken.

1 minute ago, mbwatch said:

When the balance is removed, It should ideally spin through the escape wheel very quickly, with no real resistance. And if possible, the escape wheel should rebound, reversing direction briefly when the mainspring unwinds to its end. If you see a slowly rotating or sputtering escape wheel, there is an issue in the train such as dirty pivots, bent pivots, dirty jewels/bearings, dirty pinion leaves.

It had released all tension from the main spring before I removed the balance. And it may very well be the case that there is dirt all around the movement, it looks to me like it hasn't been service for a long time, if ever at all.

[mbwatch]

Oh okay, if you have not cleaned it yet then none of these other free motion tests are relevant or helpful yet. So long as you find no obvious damage in the movement, proceed with cleaning. Then start testing train freedom and balance freedom once you know it is thoroughly clean.