Where to start troubleshooting?

[rph952]

I'm bummed that I could not repeat my success with the Zaria 2009 watch movement. I need advice on this one that has the dreaded ++++ on the timegrapher. It has amplitude of 180, beat error 0.2 ms. Lift angle is 44.3.

Initially it didn't want to run for long but I jiggled the beat error regulator and then the other regulator and it kicked into life. But there's something odd about the way it ticks. See video. It looks like it's got a skip.

In situations like this what are the steps you would go through to troubleshoot?

One thought is overbanking and checking to see if the jewels are lubricated properly. Since I'm new at oiling the jewels would more likely be over-oiled. Thanks for you advice.

 

 

[HectorLooi]

Do you have a slow motion mode on your camera? Record a 10 second video in slow motion and see if that reveals anything.

[mbwatch]

If I watch the video you posted at 0.25x speed on YouTube, unless it is dropping frames in a perfect visual trick, it looks like the amplitude is only 90 to me. It seems to male one half turn in total while 180 would be a half turn on each swing.

Do you have free train movement without the balance and fork installed? A little wind should run the train all the way down with a little bit of recoil.

And without the fork installed, does the balance oscillate freely for at least 40sec with a puff of air, or turn it 180 and let go. It should oscillate close to 100 times.

Edited February 1 by mbwatch

[GPrideaux]

I agree: perhaps 100º amplitude, but a lot less than 180º. That's definitely not overbanking or rebanking and not likely to be an issue with lubrication.

Next steps:

• Determine whether the train runs freely. Let down the mainspring, then remove the balance and pallet and give the barrel a nudge and check that all the train wheels spin. Assuming they do, pay attention not to how well the wheels spin, but to how they stop. The escape wheel should slow steadily and gradually. If it comes to an abrupt stop there is something wrong on the train, such as one or more pivots lacking end shake. If you're not sure, film it and have the experts here cast their eyes over it.
• Determine whether the balance oscillates freely. Reinstall the pallet cock (but not the pallet fork itself) and the balance, screwing both down securely. Noting the "at rest" position of the spokes on the balance, use an oiler, or an artist's paintbrush, or a toothpick (or some combination of those ... I tend to use a paintbrush in one hand and a toothpick in the other) carefully turn the balance 180º. When you release, count the full oscillations (where a full oscillation is two beats, one clockwise swing and one anticlockwise swing) until the balance comes to a full stop. If you get much less than 100 full oscillations there is an issue with the balance or its pivots. Take lots of pictures including clear views of the hairspring from the side and top. (NB: For an 18000bph watch like the Zaria 2009, 100 full oscillations is 40s of balance movement.)

My best guess based on your video is an issue with the balance. I wouldn't be surprised if you only got 20 oscillations out of it before it stopped. But that's really only a hunch and could be totally wrong.

[oldhippy]

Have you demagnetized the movement and the tools you used. I hope you didn't oil the pivots of the pallets. 

[rph952]

I have demagnetized the movement and tools.

I ran the balance minus pallet fork. It spins for 10 seconds fast and then slows to a stop in another 10 seconds.

The hairspring looks janky at the end of its run at the stud. see photo.

I'm still learning oiling but getting better. These cap jewels are really small on the Zaria.

I spun the train of wheels. See video. The escape wheel stops spinning abruptly. Ideas? Thanks.

Videos

 

[HectorLooi]

Both your balance free oscillations and gear train free spinning tests look restricted. You probably need to reclean everything and run the tests again without any lubrication.

How did you clean the movement? What cleaning agents did you use? Did you peg every hole?

[mbwatch]

Testing each wheel by itself, does any one of them not spin freely? The escape wheel in particular should zoom along spinning like a top when it is installed alone, as should the 4th wheel If it does not, the pivots or jewels have a problem or are not clean. Or the end shake is too little.

[oldhippy]

It is the hairspring that is causing the problem. I have put an arrow around where it is bent but it needs to be sorted from where it is pinned up and including where it goes through the regulator I can see on that side the hairspring is all one sided, not enough gap between coils, you also need to make sure the hairspring is flat that means not touching the underside of the balance cock or the balance wheel. Make sure the hairspring is free between the regulator  no matter in what position. 

Edited February 2 by oldhippy

[AndyGSi]

Is this the pin holding the spring in the stud that's bent right next to the coil?

 

[JohnL]

On 2/1/2025 at 2:31 AM, mbwatch said:

Do you have free train movement without the balance and fork installed? A little wind should run the train all the way down with a little bit of recoil.

Sorry, I was away when this thread started. 

Do you mind me asking if this test, using a puff of wind from a air bulb or similar I presume, is with the main barrel in place? My guess is not, but just to confirm.

[mbwatch]

58 minutes ago, JohnL said:

Do you mind me asking if this test, using a puff of wind from a air bulb or similar I presume, is with the main barrel in place? My guess is not, but just to confirm.

For this test of the whole train, the barrel is installed with ratchet and click, all wheels are installed, but the pallet fork is not installed.  Apply a little wind to the mainspring and the whole train should spin until the wind runs out. Ideally then, the escape wheel should rebound back the other direction briefly. That is a sign that the mainspring can unwind all the way without any train friction binding it.

If as it unwinds, you get no recoil and the escape wheel stops abruptly, there is friction in the train. Then, install each wheel one by one, alone, and test its spin with a puff of air. The escape wheel should spin like a top, uninhibited. And up the train, each larger wheel will spin a little less but they should all be set in motion by a puff of air. If one is binding, check its pivots and reclean them. If all of them spin freely independently but the train still doesn't spin freely together, then install the wheels in meshed pairs to check the wheel and pinion interaction - a puff of air should still be able to get two wheels spinning. One dirty or rusty pinion leaf can easily slow or stop the whole train.

[JohnL]

5 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Apply a little wind to the mainspring

Wow! OK, that's certainly something to aim for. Thank you for taking the time for posting all that. Very good of you. There have been a couple of posts, including yours obviously, that have taken information that I've seen before, but put it very clearly and concisely. It's been very useful.

[mbwatch]

You're welcome. I try to keep the habit of testing every wheel independently after initial cleaning but before any complete assembly, just so I can address any issues found without having to take everything apart. That is the best time to discover there's still rust in a pinion or a wheel will have issues with endshake. (though it is still necessary to test end shake when the whole train is assembled)

[JohnL]

I try to do the same. Normally I then test the train wheels without the mainspring barrel (with air or an oiler), then with the barrel with a brush or oiler, but I've never contemplated turning the mainspring barrel with air. Definitely something to aim for. Thanks again 

[mbwatch]

39 minutes ago, JohnL said:

but I've never contemplated turning the mainspring barrel with air.

Oh you probably don't really need to do the barrel with air. Only if you have just reduced the size of the barrel arbor hole. The other wheels should spin with air, the barrel may not easily and in any case the barrel arbor does not move in its pivot holes while the train is unwinding. The barrel rotates around the arbor. The barrel arbor only turns while winding.

[nevenbekriev]

OP, You main problem is the hairspring.

The free oscillations test shows not only losses, but higher frequency when amplitude is small. This, and the fact that the hairspring doesn't move where the arrow points when small amplitude, together mean that the spring is pressed to the cock. It is not only touching, but is firmly pressed.

Then, next picture shows some problems that need to be addressed.

You have one sharp local bend where the green lines show, it needs to be straightened first. You can shift the regulator as the place is just where the regulator is. Be careful as this bend has happened  by the regulator shifting back while the spring has stuck between the pin and crud. When done, return the regulator back where it is on the picture. Next to do is press where the red arrow show. The end curve is now bent as it's radius is smaller, the bend is on entire length and not only on single place. Pressing where arrows show while the spring is rested on the regulator will bring it back to normal.

Finally, the red circle shows where the spring is pressed to the cock. It will need some twisting to do in order to rectify, but please, remove all the bridges and parts from the main plate and put only the balance with it's cock, then make some side view photos to see where the spring needs to be addressed.

Normally I would advice to remove the balance from the cock for such hairspring repair, but here the stud carrier is a 'pinch' design and placing the stud back is specific. Not that it is hard to do, but I will have to write a lot in order to explain how.