Elgin Grade 315: Runs/stops with dial down/up

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, docrpm said:

really neat, really expensive.

It's not, but it can be. I have a few of them, I don't think I paid more than £35 for any of them. 

[Nucejoe]

4 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Exact factory specifications does not require a shim.

Bending of the balance bridge is only required if prior idiots bent the bridge for you and you need to restore it back to where it's supposed to be. Which unfortunately is quite common on American pocket watch repair.

Oh and what about the Swiss tool that I mentioned above why would the Swiss have a tool? Or even more important why would a school  like wostep use such a evil barbaric tool as that is actually how I know about the tools existence there must've been a reason why?

So yes in absolute perfect world you would never bend the bridge. You would also never use a shim as typically that's a sign of poor manufacturing skills ideally you would adjust the balance pivots and do a proper repair. Unless of course the repair requires you to restore the bridge back to where it was supposed to be in the first place.

Yes, attempts for undoing prior idiots wrong doing,  in inexpensive watches is common. 

Regs

[Neverenoughwatches]

27 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

prior idiots bent the bridge for you 

An amazing way with words, I laughed so loud the neighbour's dog started barking . At last we have a new term for " watch breakers "  curtesy of John........." Prior Idiots "...I think it is perfectly fitting, I can't wait to use it

[mbwatch]

50 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I don't think I paid more than £35 for any of them. 

Really you paid that little for a legit Trupoise?

[Neverenoughwatches]

It was about 4 years ago, one was 30, another 35 and 2 others came in joblots that I was after something else. 3 have ruby jewels and one has ceramic bearings.The most I've seen one sell for is £330.  In the uk i still see them sell occasionally for around £70. 

I'm not convinced that the Trupoise has low enough friction on the pivots to be as good as a traditional tripod poising tool with unworn ruby jaws.

[rehajm]

I found a Trupoise in a flea market box of tools (car boot). I preferred the ‘8’ style tool until the moment I broke my new Omega rivet. The trupoise holds the arms firmly and I’ve become quite efficient…

…and I just resorted to bending a balance cock. I needed a tiny bit less shake and it seemed the least risky of the other options. I held it between a stump and a fat stake while I bent the jewel end with my fingers. Honestly I don’t know how anyone would know by visual inspection. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, rehajm said:

The trupoise holds the arms firmly and I’ve become quite efficient…

? I don't know what you mean holds the arms ?

The internal spring in the spindle should allow it to hold up to the rivet and the hub of the staff.

But that means taking off both the collet and the rolle. With a figure of 8 calipers that have the correct nibs fitted you don't need to do that to true a balance wheel. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

and I just resorted to bending a balance cock

Bending the balance bridge does seem to be an acceptable method as is taught in school and after all the Swiss make a nifty tool. But?

4 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes, attempts for undoing prior idiots wrong doing,

Something was bothering me this discussion has gone on for five pages for one watch? One of the things we have to be very careful about when teaching watch repair on a discussion group is our observations of what's going on is based on the posting person making observations. The problem is if the person making observations does not actually grasp 100% what's going on will we become the idiots?

so for instance bending the balance bridge why would we do that? Typically if it's been bent by somebody else and were restoring it back to wherever it's supposed to be. Or basically the Swiss are using it to fine tune the end shake. But it appears to be if I'm reading correctly we have a variation of 0.5 mm which is not a minor amount of end shake.

this is where when you read five pages of discussion it becomes kind of a confusing mess so I would not recommend bending the balance bridge until we figure out exactly what's going on. So while I'm not a big fan of shimming which is extremely popular with @Nucejoe I do think it's perfectly acceptable until we actually figure out what's going on.

[rehajm]

…here’s a factory shim on a supposedly high quality movement…as I said it’s a lovely shim, though…

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Really you paid that little for a legit Trupoise?

Actually the last two were not so long ago, I was actually after the stakes and the Trupoise just happened to be there as a bonus. Just counted them, I have 4 and another similar one but better . So yes they do come up for sale quite cheap sometimes if nobody is wanting to buy one at the time.

1 hour ago, rehajm said:

…here’s a factory shim on a supposedly high quality movement…as I said it’s a lovely shim, though…

Somewhat of an overreaction ! I have learnt a few things from Kalle ( generally not what to do lol ) , but he honestly does my head in .

I might even have to demote him to the level of our new watch term- generously donated by John-  of  " Prior Idiot " 

9 hours ago, rehajm said:

found a Trupoise in a flea market box of tools (car boot). 

This statement make you " The Man " today. I've had some pretty good finds at carboots inc. A Dirty Dozen, but a Trupoise puts you up there on tge leader board today

And my attention to grammar and spelling is failing today , jist though Id mension thhat.

Edited Wednesday at 10:09 AM by Neverenoughwatches

[Nucejoe]

 Didn't know shimming conforms to Swiss horolog standards, in watch repair, if its to  compensate for pivot wear, it actually is not a bad practice, for the following reasons. 

1- No need to deform any part. 

2- Substitutes restaffing balance wheel, thus no need to re-poise balance wheel, among other tasks to built a balance complete. 

 Which is why, I tend to recommend shimming specially to beginers. 

Lets not forget,  to beginers, getting a non runner to tick and perhaps tok   is best encouragement. 

Regs

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:36 AM by Nucejoe
Correct repeated post.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Different methods for different reasons and different levels of skill. The methods change as the skill improves, it's just a way of progression and evolving. The reverse is true, when a skill deteriorates, the ways change to compensate.

[LittleWatchShop]

I read somewhere that some trupoise found in the wild have an alignment problem. I cannot remember details, but when I got mine, it was the first thing I checked.

[Neverenoughwatches]

This is actually my favourite static poising tool.

[SwissSeiko]

I see a lot of posts on here about poising the balance. How often are you guys doing that? It really shouldn't need to be done unless a new balance wheel has been installed. Really if its been adjusted for positions from the factory, it'll be out of poise, but adjusted for accuracy. I have a poising tool, but haven't used it. I do true balance wheels, but re-poising will mess with a watch that's already be set.

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, SwissSeiko said:

I see a lot of posts on here about poising the balance. How often are you guys doing that? It really shouldn't need to be done unless a new balance wheel has been installed. Really if its been adjusted for positions from the factory, it'll be out of poise, but adjusted for accuracy. I have a poising tool, but haven't used it. I do true balance wheels, but re-poising will mess with a watch that's already be set.

For just that Cole, but also when you are fixing a  " Prior Idiot's " movement.  Woohoo, I was itching to use that, my day is made ...thanks John.

[nevenbekriev]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Bending the balance bridge does seem to be an acceptable method as is taught in school and after all the Swiss make a nifty tool. But?

Something was bothering me this discussion has gone on for five pages for one watch? One of the things we have to be very careful about when teaching watch repair on a discussion group is our observations of what's going on is based on the posting person making observations. The problem is if the person making observations does not actually grasp 100% what's going on will we become the idiots?

so for instance bending the balance bridge why would we do that? Typically if it's been bent by somebody else and were restoring it back to wherever it's supposed to be. Or basically the Swiss are using it to fine tune the end shake. But it appears to be if I'm reading correctly we have a variation of 0.5 mm which is not a minor amount of end shake.

this is where when you read five pages of discussion it becomes kind of a confusing mess so I would not recommend bending the balance bridge until we figure out exactly what's going on. So while I'm not a big fan of shimming which is extremely popular with @Nucejoe I do think it's perfectly acceptable until we actually figure out what's going on.

Yes John, the thread got too long and it is hard to remember what happened and where are we now.

The 0.5mm end shake (which I don't actually believe much) was  I think with the old balance staff which had one pivot shortened. Now the staff is replaced so the end shake is expected to be a lot less. The problem now is the balance rubs on the center wheel in DU position, which may be both due the end shake and not trued balance. Of course, we know only what OP says and shows here and don't have the opportunity to inspect the watch in person.

[Nucejoe]

46 minutes ago, SwissSeiko said:

I see a lot of posts on here about poising the balance. How often are you guys doing that? It really shouldn't need to be done unless a new balance wheel has been installed. Really if its been adjusted for positions from the factory, it'll be out of poise, but adjusted for accuracy. I have a poising tool, but haven't used it. I do true balance wheels, but re-poising will mess with a watch that's already be set.

 That will do if one has no plan to ever work on high grade watches, but if you do plan to work high grade pieces, you best start practice poise and adjust Seiko 5 in multiple positions. 

 

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

For just that Cole, but also when you are fixing a  " Prior Idiot's " movement.  Woohoo, I was itching to use that, my day is made ...thanks John.

Isn't  "prior idiots" ,

"previous watch destroyer"  updated ? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

 That will do if one has no plan to ever work on high grade watches, but if you do plan to work high grade pieces, you best start practice poise and adjust Seiko 5 in multiple positions. 

 

 

 

 

Isn't  "prior idiots" ,

"previous watch destroyer"  updated ? 

Haha yep.  I like it,  it just rolls of the tongue

[docrpm]

21 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Although typically I'm doing American pocket watches and it actually takes quite a lot of force to bend the bridge

And that's, of course, exactly what I'm doing, which is why I'm reluctant to even attempt this fix.

First, I'm not even sure how much I need to bend it. If I've got the balance shimmed with 5 layers of foil, each roughly 0.016mm thick (standard household aluminum foil), that adds up to maybe 0.08mm that the balance cock needs to be bent. This assumes I haven't decreased the thickness of any of the layers of foil in compression. There's absolutely no way I can eyeball that small a difference, which begs the question: how can I even tell how much I've bent the balance cock? My bet is that I would either not bend it at all, or would bend it too much.

All the possible solutions suggested above will be great for future reference, but I think for this movement, a shim is the best approach. My friend will never have it adjusted; she might only wind it up on occasion to hear it ticking away, to get a reminder of her uncle to whom the watch belonged. At this point, after all of my misadventures, I just want it to run both dial up and down. I know that probably sounds like too modest a goal, but I need to move on to my next project(s) (I've already got two in process).

I'm still planning on trying to true the balance wheel (good practice), and I'll run the rotation test suggested by @nevenbekriev and @JohnR725, just to see how it works and what kind of results I get. After that, I'm pretty sure I'll just oil the balance jewels, re-assemble it, and call it a day.

One thing I've really learned in this process is the degree to which vintage watch repair is a cost-benefit analysis involving a lot of different factors.

[SwissSeiko]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 That will do if one has no plan to ever work on high grade watches, but if you do plan to work high grade pieces, you best start practice poise and adjust Seiko 5 in multiple positions. 

I work on many high grade watches daily. In fact, those are the ones you definitely don't want to re-poise, as they are most likely adjusted for positional accuracy from the factory.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, docrpm said:

If I've got the balance shimmed with 5 layers of foil, each roughly 0.016mm thick (standard household aluminum foil), that adds up to maybe 0.08mm that the balance cock needs to be bent.

one of my concerns here is five layers of foil?so there's three different ways to shim a bridge yes three ways. You can make a entire piece of metal that covers the entire space of where the bridge goes down so it lifts the bridge evenly or the most calming you see with watches is a strip of something either on one side of the screw or the other to tip the bridge either up or down this is way way more common. If I'm doing a shimming which sometimes I do its typically one thin piece of paper either to the front or to the back but you have five layers of foil that doesn't quite seem right?

one of the things I'm curious about is somewhere in the conversation I heard the word donor movement and you may have given us the serial number originally but can I have the serial number of both watches because I'm curious about something I know I looked up the staff before that came with variations but since you're busy mixing and matching of things I'm curious about something and to do that I need the serial numbers of both watches

 

[mbwatch]

3 hours ago, docrpm said:

One thing I've really learned in this process is the degree to which vintage watch repair is a cost-benefit analysis involving a lot of different factors.

And you really ended up with a challenging one for your introductory restoration.

3 hours ago, docrpm said:

My friend will never have it adjusted; she might only wind it up on occasion to hear it ticking away, to get a reminder of her uncle to whom the watch belonged. At this point, after all of my misadventures, I just want it to run both dial up and down

Congratulations on persisting through the challenges then. It is never so simple as "take it apart, clean it, put it back together" unless the watch is only like 50 years old.

[docrpm]

1 hour ago, mbwatch said:

And you really ended up with a challenging one for your introductory restoration.

Funny thing is, I did one before this: a Hamilton 974. My grandfather’s watch. That one needed a new crystal & seconds hand (both missing), a fourth wheel (original had a broken arbor), and a new escape wheel (damaged pivot). The broken and missing parts were pretty easy to fix. The escape wheel pivot issue initially escaped my notice. I was so happy to get it working! Lots of sentimental value. 

[Nucejoe]

5 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

I work on many high grade watches daily. In fact, those are the ones you definitely don't want to re-poise, as they are most likely adjusted for positional accuracy from the factory.

 Are we talking the same ballgame?  restaffed balance wheel ?   bend, unbend  bridge ?