Elgin Grade 315: Runs/stops with dial down/up

[mbwatch]

7 minutes ago, docrpm said:

Next up: paint thinner

IPA is not actually great at dissolving oil. The thinner should be better. But failing that, slice them apart with a razor blade. I can't imagine what mechanical force would be holding them together.

[docrpm]

Good suggestion...I'll try an Exacto with a new blade first. Failing that, paint thinner.

[docrpm]

Exacto did not do the trick, sadly, and given that the brass is softer than the blade, I've dinged it up a bit. It's now soaking in paint thinner, but at this point, I'm not that hopeful. These things are really sealed together. I might just have to replace with my donor jewels or attempt to buy new ones. And then I'm back to the part conundrum again.

 

[mbwatch]

That is really weird. It's clearly a replacement jewel and I have to wonder if somebody fabricated it as one piece with both jewels set into the same brass. I am speechless that they can't even be pried apart. Out of ideas.

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, mbwatch said:

It's clearly a replacement jewel

the problem is from the side view it definitely does not look right at all. Then it would be nice if we could get a photograph of the other side specifically the end jewel to see what that looks like.

Then we have a classic problem here of prior watch repair.

then looking at it again it's definitely wrong I suspect it doesn't come apart because somebody got creative.  which is back to the classic problem of prior repairs that were not done correctly. 

 

[nevenbekriev]

On 2/6/2025 at 11:32 PM, docrpm said:

• BOTTOM LINE: Test the pivots in the actual jewels in which they're supposed to be seated 

How well would the following work:

1. Mount the pivot vertically in some pith wood in the same orientation it would have looking top down on the balance cock
2. Put the hole jewel on top of the pivot and check to see if (1) it fits on the pivot easily and (2) the pivot is sticking out the top an adequate amount so that it will abut the cap stone (0.15mm?)

If the above are true, and the pivot also fits in the bottom jewel, then I could safely mount the staff in the balance wheel, without mainspring, attach the balance, then test to see how freely the wheel spins.

Is that a workable plan? Also, as an aside, assuming I would use Moebius 9010 as a lubricant for these particular jewels?

Yes this is correct. You don't have to care if the pivot is 0.11 or 0.13 or whatever particular size if it fits the pivot hole well. You have enough pictures shown here of how the pivot size is related to pivot hole size. You can check how the downside pivot fits it's hole stone as to have some reference, as there all seems to be OK.

I still don't see picture of the upper (hairspring) side pivot. I see good picture of it on another balance with broken downside pivot, which I think is of a donor movement balance?

This donor movement, does it have good cock jewel settings? The setting that Yow have is home made by someone, it is not made in the regular way with two parts, it is made with one part with reamed hole and both jewels are pressed in the hole. This is possible to work, but is not good as cleaning is practically impossible. And, it is not done good as it doesn't work for some reason. So may be the hole stone is with smaller hole or the pivot is short. I really need to see the pivot as to be able to advice if it is needed to replace the staff.

[docrpm]

@nevenbekriev There are some photos of the donor cock jewels above. The end stone looks fine; the hole jewel has a bit of visible wear, but isn't cracked. I've actually transferred those into the balance cock in the watch I'm repairing, without incident.

Unfortunately, in the process of fiddling with my balance wheel, it is now slightly bent (newbie here...I know), so I need to try to "true" it somehow. Assuming I can do that, I can test my balance staff and wheel in the new jewel to see how freely they spin. Failing that, I'm going to have to pull the broken balance staff out of my donor balance wheel and either (a) insert one of the new balances I've purchased or (b) transfer the existing balance staff. My staking set is supposed to arrive today, hopefully. 

I'll try to get better side-view images of my top balance pivot...

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, docrpm said:

fiddling with my balance wheel, it is now slightly bent

Perhaps you could show us a picture of slightly bent balance wheel so we grasped what you're getting at?

[docrpm]

@nevenbekriev Here's a close-up of the balance from my primary movement (top pivot on left, bottom on right). That's as close as I can get with my microscope. Still waiting on my NOS staffs.

Any thoughts?

On 2/11/2025 at 9:42 PM, JohnR725 said:

Perhaps you could show us a picture of slightly bent balance wheel

Here's my attempt at showing the "out-of-true" balance wheel (left) as compared to that of my donor movement (right). The difference between the two photos is just a rotation of the wheels.

The light is intended to help highlight the fact that light comes underneath the edges of one wheel, whereas the other appears to be flush with the anvil.

Thoughts @JohnR725?

[JohnR725]

8 minutes ago, docrpm said:

The light is intended to help highlight the fact that light comes underneath the edges of one wheel, whereas the other appears to be flush with the anvil.

Thoughts

depending upon where the bend actually is there is an easy way to try to fix this. you hold the balance wheel in one hand than with your other hand you just gently bend the arm either up or down until its alignment with the rest of the balance wheel. It's probably ask easier to do than it is trying to read my description.. Most of the time that will straighten balance wheels are out of flat sometimes it people get creative it's no longer flat in reference to the balance staff and then that becomes more complicated then you'll need a truing caliper. Or sometimes people bend the arms in and out depending upon where the end is that can become challenging to get it all back round again. But the easy thing to do is just bend it with your fingers carefully and see if you get it back flat again if you're lucky that will solve the problem

 

On 2/11/2025 at 9:45 AM, docrpm said:

Failing that, I'm going to have to pull the broken balance staff out of my donor balance wheel and either (a) insert one of the new balances I've purchased or (b) transfer the existing balance staff. My staking set is supposed to arrive today, hopefully. 

I think you're going to find the transferring part is going to be quite challenging or basically impossible. With the exception of friction fit balance staffs everything else is riveted in place and getting riveted staff apart and keeping the rivets or can be used again is basically impossible.

then your upper pivot does not look right at all it's a little on the short side it's not quite shaped right and it looks like it's slightly scored which would indicate a bad jewel.

[docrpm]

Here's a close-up of the balance staff after removal...The wear / damage on the top pivot is pretty evident. I also removed the damaged balance staff from the donor and took a shot of it in relationship to the new balance staffs, which thankfully arrived today. From what I can judge, it looks like a match to me (though I'm disappointed to see a couple of rust patches). And lastly, I grabbed a picture of the double-roller from the watch under repair. It looks to be in very good shape.

Next up: Check the new balance staff in the jewels to see if it's a good fit, then if so, install and test without hairspring or pallet fork.

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

This bent balance wheel is something normal which often happens when replacing balance staff, especially when punching out the old staff like You have done. Truing the balance wheel is routine operation which follows the staff riveting. You may find now the other wheel is bent too, but this is minor problem to solve.

Now, the upper pivot of the original staff is useless. I will not say if it is due wear, working in broken hole jewel or due 'special repair', but yes, replacing the staff is what one should do in such case. Now You have two balance wheels - use the one which have better hairspring. And use the jewel settings that are normal.

[docrpm]

@nevenbekriev @JohnR725 How can I tell if my balance staff is riveted or not? In the image above, it looks like it's friction-fit to me. I can't see the raised edges of the riveted type. But this is my first rodeo with balance staff replacement, so...

[RichardHarris123]

Looks like the rivet has been broken off here.

[docrpm]

Here's a close-up of the new balance...From this angle, I can see that it's riveted.

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, docrpm said:

From this angle, I can see that it's riveted.

yes that is very clearly a riveted staff or staff that supposed to be riveted in.

friction fit staffs have a very different look to them. Typically they friction fit into a steel hull but permanently mounted on the balance arms. Typically the hub is blue in color to alert the watchmaker that they're not supposed to drive that out with the staff.

 

 

[docrpm]

Good news! I was able to successfully stake in and rivet my balance staff. I put it into the movement without pallet fork or hairspring, put on the balance cock, and gave it a spin, and it moves well at high speed when I use my blower. So, I think the balance staff is a good fit, and the jewel swap in the balance cock worked. 

The BAD news: Multiple realizations here, all of them in the category of "learning by doing":

1. Hairspring: It appears to be bent and will need replacing. It's very likely that I damaged it when I removed it, which in hindsight, I understand what I did wrong.
2. Double roller: While I think the double roller itself is fine, I didn't actually note the orientation of the impulse jewel relative to the balance before I removed it. So now I have no idea how to orient it relative to the balance wheel.
3. Hairspring orientation: This was also not noted when it was removed, so now I have no idea how to orient that.

I've got an NOS hairspring on the way, but I have to figure out how to address my orientation challenges. I'll need to remove the double roller and re-install in the proper orientation then get that new hairspring on there. It will arrive in a few days.

Any suggestions on how to orient properly?

[nevenbekriev]

OK, You only have problem with the hairspring. The other problems are no problems at all. The NOS hairspring - forget about it. You only have the hairspring that is couple with the balance wheel that You have riveted the staff to. So, take good pictures of this spring and let us see them.

[mbwatch]

From one of your earlier photos, the roller jewel is situated 90° to the balance arms (usually it's either 90 or in line with the balance arms).

To situate the hairspring close to correct from where you will need to further adjust it, place the balance wheel without spring into the movement and align the impulse jewel with the center of the banking pins. Then lay the hairspring on top of the balance cock so that the stud is over its hole and the collet is over the jewel. note this position in relation to the balance rim and then you can install the spring close to where it needs to be.

But as @nevenbekriev is implying about your NOS hairspring, it probably is not going to work for you. The balance wheel and hairspring left the factory as a married pair and if you try to install a different hairspring to that balance wheel it will probably not come anywhere close to running at the correct rate afterward. It could be out by several minutes per hour even if it is a hairspring from the exact same grade and made in the same production run. The balance wheel and hairspring ("balance complete") must be kept as a matched pair.

Edited February 21 by mbwatch

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

From one of your earlier photos, the roller jewel is situated 90° to the balance arms (usually it's either 90 or in line with the balance arms).

To situate the hairspring close to correct from where you will need to further adjust it, place the balance wheel without spring into the movement and align the impulse jewel with the center of the banking pins. Then lay the hairspring on top of the balance cock so that the stud is over its hole and the collet is over the jewel. note this position in relation to the balance rim and then you can install the spring close to where it needs to be.

But as @nevenbekriev is implying about your NOS hairspring, it probably is not going to work for you. The balance wheel and hairspring left the factory as a married pair and if you try to install a different hairspring to that balance wheel it will probably not come anywhere close to running at the correct rate afterward. It could be out by several minutes per hour even if it is a hairspring from the exact same grade and made in the same production run. The balance wheel and hairspring ("balance complete") must be kept as a matched pair.

Well spotted Michael ( Mike , curious to know what you prefer  Short form or Sunday name ? ) the roller just showing the top of the pin.  I see most impulse pins directly between the balance arms. 

Though the poise of the hairspring might be off by 180 ° ? 

[mbwatch]

21 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Mike , curious to know what you prefer  Short form or Sunday name

Definitely not Mike.

[Neverenoughwatches]

27 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Definitely not Mike.

Lol no problem , I don't enjoy my Sunday name, only my mum calls me Richard. 

[docrpm]

Here are some detailed photos of the spring and roller, both mounted on the balance cock and removed.

I must admit, it's embarrassing (the way the hairspring is bent). It looks as if it's bent right at the point where it's inserted into the collet, and tweaked a bit around there. I think this happened when I was trying to remove it the first time.

@mbwatch From the photos here, I think the impulse jewel is aligned with the balance arm.

TBH, if the NOS led to the watch being off by an hour a day, it would be fine with the friend I'm repairing it for. It's a family piece with sentimental value and I'm trying to restore it so it at least runs.

@nevenbekriev @mbwatch I totally get what you're saying about hairspring and balance being a married pair, but I'm afraid that I just caused a divorce. I'm totally willing to attempt a fix, though, if it's possible. I keep telling myself that "learning by doing" is the best way to get anywhere.

[mbwatch]

That is fixable, and worth an attempt. It really only is the one bend by the collet. And if you wait a little bit, the wizard nevenbekriev will turn up and tell you exactly where to grab and which direction to push or twist in order to fix it. For me, a relative novice, I would flip that spring over and gently push on the collet to get it closer to flat, then see what the distance between those two coils looks like.

You have already come so far on this watch and made so many advanced repairs - you can pull this off.

2 hours ago, docrpm said:

@mbwatch From the photos here, I think the impulse jewel is aligned with the balance arm.

Yes indeed. So as long as the roller jewel lands centered between the banking pins, it will be very nearly perfectly in beat. Without the pallet fork installed, sight with your eye a straight line from the escape wheel jewel, through the pallet fork hole jewel to the balance staff. The roller jewel should be dead center between the pins then. Some people prefer aligning the jewel with the balance arm because it makes it easier to see that line from above, but I still find it harder to view the jewel through the pins that way so I prefer the roller being perpendicular to the balance arms myself.

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, docrpm said:

• Hairspring: It appears to be bent and will need replacing. It's very likely that I damaged it when I removed it, which in hindsight, I understand what I did wrong.
• Double roller: While I think the double roller itself is fine, I didn't actually note the orientation of the impulse jewel relative to the balance before I removed it. So now I have no idea how to orient it relative to the balance wheel.
• Hairspring orientation: This was also not noted when it was removed, so now I have no idea how to orient that.

The hairspring being replaced is not a problem sort of. If you look at the Elgin parts list it will list a hairspring and strength for this watch as they were meant to be replaceable. So an image off the parts list hopefully ordered this spring with this strength

Now the problem is in the case of American pocket watches the hairspring's were pre-made. This allows them to be made to very exacting specifications. Then the balance wheel is matched to the hairspring because the factory has a huge supply of timing screws. So once the watch is running all have to see how dramatically off your timekeeping is and you'll have to either add some weight or conceivably remove some weight. We won't know how big the problem is until the watch is completed and running.

then ideally you're supposed to note where the roller is because It will cause a poising error if it's in the wrong place. Usually because nobody's going to see that's on the bottom side you would put a small scratch on the balance rim so you know where it goes. Then it looks like you might have cracked your safety roller and it isn't exactly where it's supposed to be it's off by a tiny Bit in addition to the part that it's 90° where it's supposed to be

Then to be honest when I remove the hairspring I never notice where it is because I assume that it's in the wrong place anyway. So putting it where it's supposed to be as easy to do except I'm going to wait and see whether you're trying to straighten out the mangle hairspring or whether you want to proceed with what you have?