Elgin Grade 315: Runs/stops with dial down/up

[nevenbekriev]

OK, the original spring is bent only where it goes in the collet. Source some needle where the collet can be put on for easier manipulation and bend the spring back. First thing to achieve is to bring it in plane which is perpendicular to the needle. Then we will need pictures from above to see if it needs correction of spacing and centering.

Yes, of course, the new spring can be accommodated by changing of the moment of inertia by adding or removing mass, but it is much easier to repair the existing spring. Even If it break where it goes in the collet, it can be reattached (repined), and this can be compensated by adding some mass to the screws.

 

[docrpm]

On 2/21/2025 at 8:56 PM, JohnR725 said:

So an image off the parts list hopefully ordered this spring with this strength

Yep...That's the one I ordered. It should arrive soon.

 

On 2/21/2025 at 8:36 PM, mbwatch said:

That is fixable, and worth an attempt. It really only is the one bend by the collet. And if you wait a little bit, the wizard nevenbekriev will turn up and tell you exactly where to grab and which direction to push or twist in order to fix it.

Any guidance here is helpful, in particular, what tool I use to even hold the spring while I atempt the fix. And should I orient upside down or right side up?

On 2/21/2025 at 8:56 PM, JohnR725 said:

Then it looks like you might have cracked your safety roller and it isn't exactly where it's supposed to be it's off by a tiny Bit in addition to the part that it's 90° where it's supposed to be

Not quite sure if there's any action for me to take here. Where is it cracked? I can replace with the donor roller, though it's a bit more dinged up. This one was cleaner.

On 2/21/2025 at 8:56 PM, JohnR725 said:

I'm going to wait and see whether you're trying to straighten out the mangle hairspring or whether you want to proceed with what you have?

I think I'll try fixing the mangled spring to see if I can get that to work, then the NOS hairspring is my backup.

On 2/22/2025 at 10:40 AM, nevenbekriev said:

OK, the original spring is bent only where it goes in the collet. Source some needle where the collet can be put on for easier manipulation and bend the spring back. First thing to achieve is to bring it in plane which is perpendicular to the needle. Then we will need pictures from above to see if it needs correction of spacing and centering.

 

Will do...I've been meaning to buy one of the needle holders, so this is a perfect excuse.

I really don't want to break the spring off at the collet. Repairing that is going to be way beyond my skill level at the moment. So, when I attempt to bend it back, I will be exceedingly careful. 

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, docrpm said:

Not quite sure if there's any action for me to take here. Where is it cracked? I can replace with the donor roller, though it's a bit more dinged up. This one was cleaner.

maybe it's an optical illusion and then there is no action to take.

so basically I'm seeing two separate problems..

first in the magnified image  that you had  I put a pink line  next to what looks like a crack in the safety roller? Many times if the staff is not of the exact right size  things like this will happen..  If it is cracked it means is probably not on tight and it can rotate.

 

 

second problem  the crescent of safety roller is supposed to be located absolutely dead center with the roller jewel like in the image down below.. You will notice we have a bonus end of the pallet fork C can see that the guard pin is supposed to clear the safety roller  and it very likely may not do it if the safety roller is not perfectly centered with the roller jewel. But as I said maybe it's just an optical illusion nothing to worry about..

 

[docrpm]

13 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

maybe it's an optical illusion and then there is no action to take.

 

Thanks for the clarifications @JohnR725!!

I took a closer look at the roller, and there definitely is a hairline that runs straight through the roller to the table. I can also see how the crescent is off center in that image. It's possible, however, that the image is not providing a perfect plan view. I'll have to take a closer look at that. 

Perhaps I'll just have to use the roller from my donor, although if the staff is slightly too large, I run the risk of cracking that one as well. I'll post images of both for comparison.

More soon...

[docrpm]

A long delay since my last post due to (a) life and (b) miscellaneous tool and part orders. 

I received my replacement hairspring. I’ve attached an image for comparison with the original. With this spring as a model, I took to fixing the original (image on pith). It doesn’t look too bad, so I’ll give it a go.

One question: when I re-attach the hairspring to the balance cock, do I need to thread the end of the spring (near the collet) through those curb / index pins on the edge of the balance?  

 

[mbwatch]

5 hours ago, docrpm said:

One question: when I re-attach the hairspring to the balance cock, do I need to thread the end of the spring (near the collet) through those curb / index pins on the edge of the balance?  

I think you mean the end of the spring near the stud rather than the collet to thread between the regulator pins. And no, not really. If the hairspring is correctly formed (the overcoil in particular) and if the banking pins are not bent or closed too close together, the hairspring will often just land right in between them when you place the stud into its hole in the balance cock.

If the hairspring lands inside or outside the regulator pins, take a fine tool like an oiler and gently lift up on the hairspring right beside the regulator pins. As soon as it clears the ends of the pins the hairspring will usually drop right into place between them.

Once it is in position, check the height of the stud in the cock. Usually they will be flush together but not always. When the balance is installed on the mainplate, do a free oscillations test to make sure the hairspring does not rub on the balance arms or the underside of the cock, and the spring is flat. A tiny adjustment of the stud up or down might be necessary.

[docrpm]

4 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I think you mean the end of the spring near the stud rather than the collet to thread between the regulator pins.

Yes...Quite right. The end of the spring near the stud.

"Regulator pins"...Thanks for the terminology clarification, too @mbwatch. In my copy of Donald Carle's book, the best I could find was "curb or index pins." Given that these pins are attached to the end of the regulator, your term makes more sense.

Now, per @JohnR725 I believe, I need to pull off my double roller, replace with the one without a hairline crack (in the proper 90 degree orientation), replace the hairspring (also hopefully in the right orientation, which I think you provided some insight), mount to the balance cock, and see if things work. I'm now seeing why attempting repairs with balances can be so challenging: there are lots of things one can screw up.  

I keep telling myself: learning by doing.

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, docrpm said:

Donald Carle's book,

Watch repair is quite interesting for terminology. We have differing terminology over a span of time. Plus we have different terminology because of locations. You're working on an American pocket watch the terminology will be slightly different then a book written in the UK.

3 hours ago, docrpm said:

I believe, I need to pull off my double roller, replace with the one without a hairline crack (in the proper 90 degree orientation),

Personally do this in baby steps. In other words deal with the roller do not put the hairspring on yet. Then with your complete balance without hairspring put it in the watch. Verify that the balance wheel can rotate and engage with the escapement and everything seems to work smoothly.

Then you can put the hairspring in and if you need me to explain in more detail exactly quite easy to figure out where they hairspring goes at this instant the time.

3 hours ago, docrpm said:

I'm now seeing why attempting repairs with balances can be so challenging: there are lots of things one can screw up.

This is one of the interesting problems with learning watch repair. Often times people are told to start with a pocket watch which is both a good and bad suggestion. Good because it's nice and big bad because they think they're supposed to be repairing it. It's why it prefer people start with a brand-new Chinese clone of 6497 as nobody cares what's going to happen to this watch.

So many times people start with a pocket watch thinking there supposed to be repairing it as opposed to just learning how things work which is hard to do on a broken pocket watch. Need to spend a lot of time learning how to disassemble and reassemble clean lubricates before moving on to the more challenging things like balance staff replacement.

Then yes I have seen an remember at least one example of somebody starting with a six size Elgin that had roller jewel issues. Yes they started off with a lot of enthusiasm and excitement and as the list of tools piled up the frustration and soon they left watch repair. It basically is so much better if you start with watches that are running and maybe just cleaning might fix the problem rather than jumping in with both feet and it can be quite a learning process and expenses and frustrations at a time where you're supposed to be learning And having fun.

[mbwatch]

3 hours ago, docrpm said:

"Regulator pins"...Thanks for the terminology clarification, too @mbwatch. In my copy of Donald Carle's book, the best I could find was "curb or index pins." Given that these pins are attached to the end of the regulator, your term makes more sense.

I think I tend to use "index pins" and "regulator pins" interchangeably. I don't say "curb pins" because I can never remember if that is supposed to correctly refer to the regulator or to the pallet fork banking pins.

[RichardHarris123]

Pallet fork or lever?  Lever the correct terminology, Swiss, English etc. Pallet fork, although incorrect is widely used. 

[docrpm]

In the category of "from bad to worse," I think I may have a glimmer into what's happening here...

So I removed the double roller with the hairline crack (with some difficulty). Then, I got myself all set up to stake in the new roller table. I was very careful and deliberate through the entire process, but it was just not going on very easily. I figured it must be me doing something wrong with the staking tool (using the wrong stake etc). I finally got the new double roller seated properly, and then I took a close look at my handiwork: cracked. Again. Hairline.

Given that this is the situation, my scientific mind leads me to deduce that the balance staff replacement I purchased is, in fact, too big for the two double rollers. The crack was created by tapping the roller onto the shaft that is slightly too large.

So now I seem to have a few options:

1. Try to install the balance as-is and hope that the hairline crack doesn't prevent operation (after all, I just want it to run – I don't care if it's not very accurate)
2. Go back to square one and either buy an entire balance assembly (i.e., probably a whole new donor) or buy another new balance staff and double roller, paying very close attention to sizing to ensure compatibility.
3. Give up

Thoughts?

[mbwatch]

Option 4 is keep hanging out with us here until you end up buying a lathe, reduce the size of the roller seat by slightly turning down the staff you have, and install a NOS Elgin double roller which are fairly easy to get.

[docrpm]

That’s the Devil’s Option @mbwatch … I like it. 

The list keeps growing: a lathe, a Horia (or clone), JKA Feintaster bench micrometer. My wife is not going to be happy with me…And I’m going to have to clear some new space in my guest room workshop. 

But until the date when those things enter my workshop, I might have to just re-assemble this balance as best I can, give the watch back to my friend, and tell her I might be able to resurrect it sometime soon-ish. 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, this is a little hard for me to remember what happened in cases which take long time to move, so please excuse if i have forgotten something,

Now, live the roller on the balance as is. The crack will not prevent the balance from normal working, at least this is the most probable outcome and leave checking it for later.

The hairspring... You original spring is good. It only needs a little attention in the center.

The first thing is to grasp where the red ovals show with sharp pointed tweezers (between the coils and in the collet hole) and squeeze.

The next is to grasp the coil where the green ovals show with sharp tweezers tips and press with needle where arrow is to deform the coil in order to decrease the radius - this will bring the coil to normal.

The blue oval is where the angle of the overcoil is to be opened a little, but do it when the spring is attached to the cock to observe it centering correctly.

Does the balance rotate free and true now if placed with the cock? (I mean no hairspring, no pallet fork, all jewel settings in place)?

[docrpm]

The saga continues...Thanks for all the great suggestions @nevenbekriev @JohnR725 @mbwatch

Here's what I did:

• Checked balance wheel with roller only and it spun freely (30 sec+ after a puff or three of air)
• Attempted to remediate hairspring and failed...Every time I thought I was improving things, I'd slip and bend something further. I managed to get it flat and fixed the part nearest the collet, and figured I'd just give it a try.
• Mounted the mainspring and re-assembled, but no dice; the balance wasn't functional
• Decided to try NOS mainspring, so removed the old one and mounted the new one, only to find that my balance staff had come dislodged when mounting the new spring...NOOOOOOOO!
• Removed damaged balance staff and installed my backup, installed double roller, then checked the new balance wheel and roller in the movement (sans pallet and hairspring)...free-and-easy spinning, though my balance wheel is a bit out of true (slight vertical wobble)
• Installed NOS mainspring, mounted on balance cock, re-installed, triple-checked pivots and jewels to make sure everything lined up properly, then screwed down the balance cock.
• Double-check overcoil to make sure it was between regulator pins...check
• It WORKED! Woo-hoo! But hang on...we need to check one last thing
• I tilted the watch 90 degrees (vertical), and it kept running smoothly
• I continued another 90 degrees so the dial was face up and....it stopped

So, after ALL of this work, wherein I've learned a ton, and I now have a new balance staff and hairspring successfully mounted on my balance wheel, I still haven't resolved the issue that started this whole thread. Watch works upside down, doesn't work right-side up.

My only idea at this point is to oil the balance jewels and see if that's the source of the issue. I didn't do it before installing the repaired balance because I wanted to see if it would at least work first.

Failing that, I think I'm out of options that are commensurate with my current skill level.

On the off chance that there are any other newbies enjoying this thread, here's a not-so-quick summary of what I've learned so far:

• Attempt repairs on a balance at your own peril...there are many dependencies between parts in this fussy little assembly and thus many potential points of failure. I'm pretty sure @JohnR725 asked me if I was sure I was up for this challenge, and I was gung-ho.  
• Balance staff replacement on vintage watches is a minefield:
  • Parts may be incompatible (e.g., staff and roller diameters)
  • There are many possible combinations to consider when installing/removing the bits and bobs (e.g., double- v. single-roller, riveted v. fraction-fit, circumferential orientation of both the roller and the hairspring)
  • It doesn't hurt to buy backup NOS parts
• It's really easy to bend a hairspring when removing it; be careful. Use an anvil or other solid surface beneath when you're removing; if you use pith wood, you're liable to bend the balance arms. In fact, it's easy to bend the balance wheel in general.
• DO NOT attempt fixes to a bent hairspring unless you have nerves of steel and know what you're doing. I understood conceptually what I needed to do, but just lacked the physical finesse and tool expertise to execute
• Be methodical, patient, and check work to the degree possible at every stage
• A few tools you'll probably want to have:
  • Staking tool / set
  • Finely ground lifting bars to remove hairspring
  • Dumont No 5 tweezers (or similar) for detail work
  • Balance rest

It's all fine and well to watch a bunch of YouTube videos of people doing this stuff, but it's harder than it looks. I really appreciated all the help that's been provided in this forum.

 

[mbwatch]

2 hours ago, docrpm said:

But it's harder than it looks

Also it's all way smaller than it looks.

2 hours ago, docrpm said:

So, after ALL of this work, wherein I've learned a ton, and I now have a new balance staff and hairspring successfully mounted on my balance wheel, I still haven't resolved the issue that started this whole thread. Watch works upside down, doesn't work right-side up.

My only idea at this point is to oil the balance jewels and see if that's the source of the issue. I didn't do it before installing the repaired balance because I wanted to see if it would at least work first.

Oh that's a drag.

If you are up to continuing, remove the hairspring again and test balance spin under a puff of air without it dial down, dial up, and pendant up.

Actually before that, hold the watch to your ear while it is running dial down and flip it over to listen for the sound it makes while stopping. You might hear a scrape or twang if the hairspring touches the balance cock or the balance arms. That will stop it.

Then check balance end shake. Grasp the rim with tweezers and feel how movement it has up down and side side. There should be basically no side movement only rotation, but the slightest detectable amount of up down motion. If there is a lot of motion, there is a good chance the hairspring will rub on the balance cock when it is dial up.

If that is the case, there could be a problem or old "modification" to the balance cock or plate. These repairs turn up as marks or gouges under the balance cock, and were made to deal with end shake issues when balance staffs were changed 90 years ago. I have a 12s Elgin like that which can't run DU with a correctly sized balance staff because someone dorked with the balance cock in the past.

Then if end shake is okay check balance spin in all the positions without the hairspring.

[caseback]

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Actually before that, hold the watch to your ear while it is running dial down and flip it over to listen for the sound it makes while stopping. You might hear a scrape or twang if the hairspring touches the balance cock or the balance arms. That will stop it.

This is good advice.

What you could use to better hear what is going on in/with the movement is using one of these:  They're called "tickoprint". They have a microphone like timegraphers have and are (or in fact were..) used for regulating watches.  They have a printing mechanism. Very outdated now, and so they come up for sale regurarly and are dirt cheap. In most cases the printing mechanism doesn't work anymore, but that’s not an issue. The reason why you might want one (and why I have one) is that it has a speaker connection. Works great.

Another option (less fun if you like more tools..) would be to modify your timegrapher (if you have one). There is info online that shows how to hook up a loudspeaker to one of those. For instance: 

 

Edited March 21 by caseback

[mbwatch]

Oh one other thing to look at if it won't run dial up - I can't remember if this was anywhere earlier in the thread. Take the balance off and check the end shake on the pallet fork, as well as examine if the pallet fork arbor pivots are worn or broken, and check the pallet arbor jewels. If when you flip it dial up the pallet fork has too much end shake, it "falls" down and may then rub against the double roller. It should have very little up/down motion and obviously if you find a broken jewel that is a problem.

7 hours ago, caseback said:

What you could use to better hear what is going on in/with the movement is using one of these:  They're called "tickoprint".

I had no idea these could be bought under $100 USD.

[docrpm]

14 hours ago, mbwatch said:

If you are up to continuing, remove the hairspring again and test balance spin under a puff of air without it dial down, dial up, and pendant up.

I'm not planning on giving up until I've exhausted all the avenues within my skill level (though I think we're pretty close to there...).

Removed hairspring and tested balance under puff of air in three positions: dial down, vertical, dial up. The balance wheel spins in all three positions, however, in the dial up position, I can definitely hear the sound of metal against metal. I suspect there is some impingement of the balance wheel on the underside of the balance cock when held dial up. 

14 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Then check balance end shake. Grasp the rim with tweezers and feel how movement it has up down and side side. There should be basically no side movement only rotation, but the slightest detectable amount of up down motion. If there is a lot of motion, there is a good chance the hairspring will rub on the balance cock when it is dial up.

To my very inexperienced eye, it seems to me like there IS excessive end shake. I can lift the balance by perhaps 0.5mm...I can see the double roller lift up. Note that it's also difficult to seat the balance cock on that upper pivot in the first place, when I'm trying to install it, which says to me that it's not sitting right (i.e., it's low).

These two pieces of evidence (noise + end shake) seem to support the hypothesis that the balance is rubbing against the balance cock in the dial-up position. Presumably when the hairspring is added back into the mix, the extra weight is what makes it stop entirely.

NOTE: I checked the pallet fork...no detectable end shake. The jewel on the pallet bridge looks fine, and there is no jewel in the baseplate (it's metal...not sure what the metal analog to a jewel is called).

If this is an end-shake problem, and I've already replaced the balance staff, what options do I have left?

[JohnR725]

26 minutes ago, docrpm said:

Removed hairspring and tested balance under puff of air in three positions: dial down, vertical, dial up. The balance wheel spins in all three positions, however, in the dial up position, I can definitely hear the sound of metal against metal. I suspect there is some impingement of the balance wheel on the underside of the balance cock when held dial up. 

As were currently on three pages of discussion will very likely repeat stuff from the first and second pages. It also means I'm not going go back and reread the first and second page either or the third page for that matter

then when you're doing your testing you didn't say whether the pallet fork is in? In order to get better visibility why don't you remove everything except the balance wheel And its bridge. When it's been in nicely dial down is the balance wheel wobbling around? Or is it flat?

29 minutes ago, docrpm said:

Note that it's also difficult to seat the balance cock on that upper pivot in the first place, when I'm trying to install it, which says to me that it's not sitting right (i.e., it's low).

You could try disassembling the jewel assembly and seeing if the jewel with the hole actually fits over the pivot.

[nevenbekriev]

OK, You have balance related problems and until they are not solved, no point to check how the watch runs. First, when doing the free oscillations test, do not use puff with air. The test is meant for comparative measurement and needs to be precise. Turn the balance (use You finger) exactly to 180 degr and release it, then count the oscillations to full stop. Do the test DU and DD to be sure there is no significant difference. No point to go ahead with watch testing before result of at least 150 oscillations, which is 60 sec.

The axial free play can not be 0.5mm. If more than 0.2mm, the pivots will be probably able to get out of the pivot holes and the balance will wobble. The free play needs to be small, but to exist. If You have such big free play, than this is serious problem. But for sure, the balance doesn't rub on the cock. The first candidate for where the balance rubs is the central wheel. You need to check if the balance cock is not bent up. If it is not the case, then the staff is not the correct one OR the stone settings are wrong. To compensate for big free play, You can bent the cock down, but no more than 0.1mm. If more bending is needed, then something is wrong (staff or settings).

 

[mbwatch]

36 minutes ago, docrpm said:

If this is an end-shake problem, and I've already replaced the balance staff, what options do I have left?

A half mm of balance end shake sounds like way too much.

Look for some damage or modifications  under the balance cock to see if someone intentionally messed with the shake. Here's an extreme example from one of my probably not fixable watches. Those gouges in the metal in-board of the screw hole are meant to raise up the balance cock to increase shake, and meanwhile the gouges behind the screw are meant to reduce shake so all told, this watch is a mess.

You can test reducing shake by making a tiny piece of tin foil  and putting it behind the balance cock screw, toward the outside. Screw down the balance cock on top of it and it will push the jewel down on the balance staff to reduce shake. Double the foil for double the effect. That's what the above metal gouges were mercilessly attempting.

Edit - wow all 3 of us replied at once. Sorry for the mess.

[docrpm]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

then when you're doing your testing you didn't say whether the pallet fork is in? In order to get better visibility why don't you remove everything except the balance wheel And its bridge. When it's been in nicely dial down is the balance wheel wobbling around? Or is it flat?

The pallet fork is out and there's no hairspring on the balance. Just the wheel with the staff and roller. Under these conditions, the balance has a slight vertical wobble. I think part of this wobble is coming from the fact that the wheel is not perfectly flat, despite my best efforts to make it so. If there's too much end shake, then I'd guess the rest of the wobble is coming from that...

 

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

But for sure, the balance doesn't rub on the cock. The first candidate for where the balance rubs is the central wheel.

That makes sense...Not sure whether I can observe by eye in the dial up position, but I can try.

 

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Turn the balance (use You finger) exactly to 180 degr and release it, then count the oscillations to full stop. Do the test DU and DD to be sure there is no significant difference. No point to go ahead with watch testing before result of at least 150 oscillations, which is 60 sec.

At the risk of asking a really stupid question, I'm assuming this test would be done with no power in the mainspring? Without even performing it, I can say with near certainty that I wouldn't get 150 oscillations out of a half turn of the balance wheel.

1 hour ago, mbwatch said:

You can test reducing shake by making a tiny piece of tin foil  and putting it behind the balance cock screw, toward the outside. Screw down the balance cock on top of it and it will push the jewel down on the balance staff to reduce shake. Double the foil for double the effect.

I'll give that a shot...It's a simple enough test.

 

[JohnR725]

2 minutes ago, docrpm said:

At the risk of asking a really stupid question, I'm assuming this test would be done with no power in the mainspring? Without even performing it, I can say with near certainty that I wouldn't get 150 oscillations out of a half turn of the balance wheel.

Yes absolutely no power at all. This is a controlled test. Using the hairspring to supply the energy. Turn the balance wheel exactly 180° Then it would be ideal if you in a watch with  a second hand C get tell us how many seconds it took before it came to a stop in each of the three positions

[nevenbekriev]

The free oscillations test is to be performed without pallet fork. We do not speak about power in the mainspring, as there is no matter if the mainspring is mounted in the movement or not. Balance swings on it's own.

I guess that what You cal 'balance wobble' is happening when it rotates. If so, this is simlpy balance out of true and it has nothing to do with the axial free play. To check the axial free play, move the balance up/down, but observe the balance staff (or the roller), not the balance rim