Regulation question.

[Bill1]

Hi all,

I am working on a old and cheap Waldman Electra. I discovered upon reciept that it is a pin pallet movement  - something new to learn.

I have disassembled and cleaned twice.

I can get a decent trace in both the dial up and dial down positions, however in any of the vertical pendant positions it's a mess - sometimes the escapement stops.

 

I polished all the pivots. The pivots holes appear to be ok - no obvious distortion of the holes. The balance seems to be ok - concentric and breathes good. Train of wheels ok.

Would this indicate a weak mainspring? Or is the movement possibly worn out and not suitable for repair?

Bill.

 

 

 

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

Can You place some photos of the movement? What type balance pivots it has - conical on cylindrical? What the free oscillations test shows? May be the escapement needs regulation, but it is probably not weak mainspring.

[JohnR725]

On 2/14/2025 at 12:19 PM, Bill1 said:

cheap Waldman Electra

typically with names like this that hint at something else you will find a pin lever watch.

On 2/14/2025 at 12:19 PM, Bill1 said:

I can get a decent trace in both the dial up and dial down positions, however in any of the vertical pendant positions it's a mess - sometimes the escapement stops.

how did you lubricate the escapement? Then what does the amplitude look like visually? then can we have a picture of your timing machine results?

On 2/14/2025 at 12:19 PM, Bill1 said:

Would this indicate a weak mainspring?

did you take the mainspring out to clean it?

[Bill1]

Nevenbekriev, JohnR725,

To answer both of your questions.

Pivots have conical points. I used an extra fine pin polisher to polish the pivots.

Free oscillation test - I don't know what this is. Is it placing the balance alone on the plate to observe its rotation?

I lubricated the movement as I would a normal movement.

I removed the mainspring and cleaned and lubricated it. The spring was flat on the bench - it looked ok to me. It is an old style mainspring - no S curve.

Timegrapher: at first the watch would not give a reading. I manually inputted the beat rate as 17280 - (found online) I could not find any information regarding the lift angle - so I used 52.

Bill.

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, Bill1 said:

Timegrapher: at first the watch would not give a reading. I manually inputted the beat rate as 17280 - (found online) I could not find any information regarding the lift angle - so I used 52.

I'm always suspicious of pin lever watches and timing machines at least for amplitude. This is why there are times where you'd need to visually look at the amplitude and see if it agrees with the timing machine.

then the mainspring should be fine.

then the various positions on the timing machine do look interesting don't they? then I see the hands and dial on the watch? Usually for timing when the watches running that's when you usually want to have it on the timing machines of case there's a problem you have to start removing things. So basically if it had a calendar you wouldn't have the calendar on you typically don't have the automatic on just the basic running watch on the timing machine.

then there is a another problem possibly? The microphone of the timing machine was designed to hold a watch. He was specifically designed this way because it needs to pick up the vibration which happens to be in the audio frequency but it needs a vibration of the watch cleanly clearly sent to the outer metal plate where the sensor is mounted underneath. So occasionally watches held in movement holders or even fully cased up watches will not look as nice because the movement holder of the watch case etc. is interfering with a clear signal.

Oh and of course having a dial on the watch on the timing machine is a bit of a problem as you can risk damaging the dial. Another reason the time the watch before the hands and dial are on. here's an example of how the microphone is supposed to hold the watch and yes this isn't a wristwatch it's a 10 size Elgin watch but the principles the same. this is the way you want to hold your watch so the sensor that's down underneath gets the best and cleanest signal.

 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, this is Roskopf type movement, the balance pivots are not conical, but regular cylindrical type. The movement has no jewels at all and has probably never been adjusted.

This kind of watches do wear. Absence of jewels is the main factor for the wear. What wears is the balance bearing holes, but also the escapement bearing holes and the pins of the pallet fork.

Unadjusted watches only count on good amplitude to maintain small position errors and in this case, good amplitude is 220 degr in vertical positions.

Now, we have some timegrapher readings. We have some amplitudes there, but as John says, no point to consider them real. May be, we only can say that amplitude is bigger DD than DU, and there is difference in amplitudes in different vertical positions, which is bad.

In the first post, there is a sentence that says that in vertical, 'sometimes the escapement stops', but it is not clear to me if the movement stops or if the timegrapher stops displaying.

Now, we need real amplitudes. Just to know what the condition is - is it a strong runner or if it barely runs. I am a bit tired to explain that one doesn't need timegrapher to see amplitude, just naked eye is enough. I figured out that best option here is to ask for slow motion video, thus to be able to see amplitude by myself.

If the amplitude is bigger DD than DU, this means the 'endstone' plate on the balance cock has developed a pit where the balance pivot tip contacts with it, and probably the pivot tip has become flat. My advice will be first to remove the plate from the cock and put it back turned to 180 degr. This usually makes the pivot to contact with another point, so the pit doesn't matter any more. But this is true only if the pit is not in the center of the steel 'stone', this usually is the case.

The different amplitudes in vertical positions may be because of the guard finger rubbing on the safety roller. Before doing something, please assure the escapement (pins and escape teeth) is correctly lubricated. If lubrication doesn't help, then slight regulation of the depth may be tried.

And finally, some static and dynamic poising may be needed to be done in order to lower the vertical differences. Saying this, bent balance pivot(s) may cause huge position errors.

You said You polished balance pivots. Polishing is bad idea, but can You explain how exactly You did it? Yes, the free oscillations test is to put the balance in the movement alone, to decline it to 180 degr. and let it oscillate free. Then count the number of oscillations to full stop. You can make it with DU and DD to compare the condition of the bearings - no significant differences to be there

 

[Bill1]

Johnr725, Nevenbekriev,

Thank you for taking the time to provide your detailed answers. I will remove the hands and dial and try again on the timegrapher and also will sit the watch correctly in the microphone as shown in the photograph. I will also endeavour to look at the amplitude visually and follow Nevans instructions.

As for poising - I have read up on it in Frieds Repair manual and seems a little advanced for me at present.

About polishing the pivots - I used a pin polisher, pushed lightly on to the pivot and rotated a few times. ( I got this from a watch repair video on Youtube by a Watchmaker and assumed it was the way it was done.)

 

 

Bill.