Roller table doesn't grip new balance staff

[graemeW]

I have a 1916 favre 13 ligne, I have spoken about this before. It had a broken balance jewel and a worn balance staff.

I got the hole jewel from a scrap movement  managed to remove the rubbed in broken one, even managed to get the replacement rubbed back in! Chuffed about that, wasn't easy!

I bought a staking set and fitted a new staff, ronda 1296 for favre 13. It all seems good and everything was going well. But the roller table doesn't grip the staff. It's not loose with play, doesn't quite fall off, but rodico provides enough grip to pull it back off. It's bottoming out on the hub of the staff so tapping it on harder achieves nothing.

Any suggestions on what I can do? Only thing I can think of would be to reduce the height of the hub so the roller table sits further onto the taper (the staff is tapered where the roller goes right?). I don't have a lathe to do that though. Only other thing I can think of would be to use some glue. Seems like a bodge though.

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 minutes ago, graemeW said:

I have a 1916 favre 13 ligne, I have spoken about this before. It had a broken balance jewel and a worn balance staff.

I got the hole jewel from a scrap movement  managed to remove the rubbed in broken one, even managed to get the replacement rubbed back in! Chuffed about that, wasn't easy!

I bought a staking set and fitted a new staff, ronda 1296 for favre 13. It all seems good and everything was going well. But the roller table doesn't grip the staff. It's not loose with play, doesn't quite fall off, but rodico provides enough grip to pull it back off. It's bottoming out on the hub of the staff so tapping it on harder achieves nothing.

Any suggestions on what I can do? Only thing I can think of would be to reduce the height of the hub so the roller table sits further onto the taper (the staff is tapered where the roller goes right?). I don't have a lathe to do that though. Only other thing I can think of would be to use some glue. Seems like a bodge though.

Setting the roller higher will upset the fork interactions with it.

[Knebo]

Hi @graemeW, 

Check out this video from 15min onwards. 

Cheers 

[graemeW]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Setting the roller higher will upset the fork interactions with it.

Good point. I can't do that anyway, not got a lathe

5 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Hi @graemeW, 

Check out this video from 15min onwards. 

Cheers 

I have been searching the net and found this solution, I've read warnings the roller can shatter if it's too hard though.

 

I also read about putting a hair in it! Crazy, but apparently works.

I'll see if I can raise some burrs to tighten it, if not, a hair it is!

[Knebo]

7 minutes ago, graemeW said:

read warnings the roller can shatter if it's too hard though

Yes, go soft on it. Test. Redo. Smll increments until you get there. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

47 minutes ago, graemeW said:

Good point. I can't do that anyway, not got a lathe

I have been searching the net and found this solution, I've read warnings the roller can shatter if it's too hard though.

 

I also read about putting a hair in it! Crazy, but apparently works.

I'll see if I can raise some burrs to tighten it, if not, a hair it is!

Something tells me that the roller didn't survive ' Hammertime '

[caseback]

1 hour ago, graemeW said:

But the roller table doesn't grip the staff.

Yes that can happen. There are size differences between the various manufacturers. Sometimes a roller table will be loose on (for instance) a dgn staff, but will be a perfect fit for a ronda staff. It's good practise to always measure the critical dimensions before fitting it to the wheel. (ask me how I know..) 

[Neverenoughwatches]

34 minutes ago, caseback said:

Yes that can happen. There are size differences between the various manufacturers. Sometimes a roller table will be loose on (for instance) a dgn staff, but will be a perfect fit for a ronda staff. It's good practise to always measure the critical dimensions before fitting it to the wheel. (ask me how I know..) 

Yes I had that problem a year or so ago, with a staff change,a couple of 100ths under size on the roller shoulder... I think I shellaced it in place.

[rehajm]

I’ve used the three sided punch method. Used a light tap or two and it was fine.

[graemeW]

The 3 sided punch method didn't work. The roller table bas a small bevel around the hole. I tried to distort it with the punch but there was no way I was going to be able to move enough metal.

I ended up using the eyelash trick which seems to have worked well.

[mbwatch]

On 2/21/2025 at 7:53 PM, rehajm said:

three sided punch

Sorry to hijack. Can someone post a good photo of the business end of that punch? I don't have one but was thinking I could probably file a broken punch into it, as I needed it recently too.

Nevermind, Cousins sells them individually.

[caseback]

Opinions vary on the use of that tool. I have mixed feelings about it too. You are essentially marring the roller table, which could be considered "bad practice" (and is in fact considered as such by Henry B. Fried in his excellent book "the watch repairer's manual"). If your livelihood depends on the speed of your repair and you're not hurting the value of the piece, the use of this tool could be a "quick and dirty fix". There are however more elegant solutions and Fried mentions some. I've always opted for replacing the balance staff with a suitable one.

Edited February 25 by caseback

[nevenbekriev]

I will advice to glue the roller with shellac or some red  threadfixing loctite.

Punching the roller table can deform it. Generally it is  the tube that will get shortened and bent and as the safety roller has cut (weak) place, it can open and get eccentric. The steel rollers can even break.

Different thing is when it is single roller - then yes, the hole can be closed by domed punch.

[mikepilk]

I have used a tiny bit of kitchen foil around the staff but I like the idea of Loctite. Doesn't cause any damage and can easily be removed.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Punching the roller table can deform it. Generally it is  the tube that will get shortened and bent and as the safety roller has cut (weak) place

I feel that's what happened in the video, i thought he whaled down on it tbh. The vid was edited directly afterwards . You recommended glueing to me Nev and shellac worked just fine.

12 hours ago, graemeW said:

I ended up using the eyelash trick which seems to have worked well.

I got curious about this idea, my original thought was that it would push the roller off-centre, which it would, but how much ?  I pulled a couple of beard whiskers ...I won't be doing that again anytime soon .  A beard whisker measures around 12 hdths, with a medium compression that finishes around 4-5 hdths, thats quite a big deal in the way of safety clearances if a roller is thrown off-center by that much. An eyelash is less of an intrusion in the roller hole, diameter at a mid thickness of it is around 4 hdths and compressed around 2 hdths, with the thinnest part compressing to 1 hdth. So if that grips the roller and all is needed is an extra 100th then it probably isn't going effect the escapement much. But it is organic material and may compress and wear over time, something more solid might be better like Mike's tin foil...or maybe just glue it in place.

[Kalanag]

10 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Sorry to hijack. Can someone post a good photo of the business end of that punch?

Not Bergeon but Swiss made (K&D).

Edited February 25 by Kalanag

[caseback]

10 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Sorry to hijack. Can someone post a good photo of the business end of that punch?

 

 

Edited February 25 by caseback

[mbwatch]

2 hours ago, caseback said:

It was an emergency! I ended up using loctite.

[tomh207]

I don’t fancy trying to close up a double roller with that stake, just a feeling. Remember all the literature mentioning this technique are rather old and don’t always mention whether the roller is double or single. Before anyone says “but it is part of the standard staking set”, so are the punches and stakes for changing cylinder tampons and ask yourself how often you do that task. 
 

Tom

[mbwatch]

1 minute ago, tomh207 said:

Remember all the literature mentioning this technique are rather old and don’t always mention whether the roller is double or single.

For my purposes, I would typically use an old tool like this specifically for an old watch as a "classical" repair like would have been done on a single roller or an early two piece double roller. But only if there was a risk in breaking the roller jewel with the amount of hammering a domed punch typically requires to close a hole. That was my use case recently - an 18 size American watch single roller, which will usually have a very long fine impulse jewel sticking up and fragile to take all the pounding. The triangular one should need a lot less force to raise some small burs.

[tomh207]

@mbwatch that was my meaning, very old tool for very old watches not something that many would need.

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

I don’t fancy trying to close up a double roller with that stake, just a feeling. Remember all the literature mentioning this technique are rather old and don’t always mention whether the roller is double or single. Before anyone says “but it is part of the standard staking set”, so are the punches and stakes for changing cylinder tampons and ask yourself how often you do that task. 
 

Tom

Like Nev made comment on...the center portion of a double roller between the two diameters of table and safety roller is thin and weak...easily crushed. There will be an anvil that supports just the roller table so the weak center doesn't come under compression. 

[mikepilk]

I've destroyed a couple of rollers trying to adjust them, not realising how soft they are. Which is why I prefer Loctite. Easy to use and reversible.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Nickelsilver eagle-eyed a crushed roller some time ago, so it's  a fairly common occurrence. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Not sure if I'm thrilled or not that I have one now

Not just one but four, the first was way big, found three much smaller ones in another set. Finding a support for the experimental roller is proving more difficult. 

So sometimes you have to see things to believe them. With a trial roller of 1.5mm thickness and the smallest indenture punch I have this is what happened. The pictures are in order sequence of events and self explanatory, note that I polished the roller before hand so the result would be clear . Bearing in mind even though I'm a rough arsed joiner when it comes to watch repair I am super focused, very mindful of what I'm doing and extremely delicate when I need to be. The guy in the video definitely messed up as my hammer taps were barely perceptible compared to his. As you can see I did not support the roller in any way but destruction would be just around the corner. 

The punch I used, had never been, so it was sharp, if anyone tries this method of tightening a roller I suggest that their punch is also sharp.

Unfortunately I couldn't test it for a fitting as the roller was recently orphaned by yours truly in another experiment that involved slicing its home in half ( lathe staff removal ).