rolex dial restoration

[arron]

I finally received this Rolex family heirloom from a family member.  After much thought and a fair amount of research I have decided that I want to remove the radium from the dial and have the dial restored.  I could only find two companies in the US that seemed trustworthy and I'm wondering if anyone has experience with either Rich Kirk/myjewelryrepair.com out of California or carignan watch company out of New Hampshire?  Or if you've had a good experience with another dial restorer in the US, please let me know.  Given the sentimental value of the watch I do not want to send the dial to just anyone. Thank you.

[JohnR725]

15 minutes ago, arron said:

Rolex family heirloom

I'm assuming that no one else in the family cares whatever you're going to do this watch? This is because from a collecting point of view even though it has radium on the dial if you remove that from a watch collecting point of view the watch is now lowered in value. You would actually be much better off to find a replacement dial get that refinished just for the purists if you really want to keep this original.

Oh and I assume you're going to replace the hands if you haven't done so already?

I've heard stories that when people are purchasing vintage Rolex watches they actually will bring a Geiger counter because the various watches had various levels of radiation. So in other words if it's a replacement dial or somebody's playing games with the watch and others swapping parts around they will know

 

17 minutes ago, arron said:

I want to remove the radium from the dial and have the dial restored. 

Then I assume I'm just being nitpicky here but you're going to send the dial to them and have them remove the radium?

18 minutes ago, arron said:

Rich Kirk/myjewelryrepair.com

Then no experience at all but the names familiar. But that doesn't mean anything because often times businesses are sold and the business keeps the name of the people go.

 

[arron]

Hi John. Thanks for your response. Yes my hope is to send it off and have them remove the radium although rich Kirk does not do that so I would need to remove it myself. The other company I mentioned is willing to remove the radium. I did that on another watch that I had so it is doable. I'm also on the lookout for a replacement dial but really haven't found anything. Once I get the movement and dial out of the case I can measure it and that might help me to find a replacement and then just safely store the original dial in my workshop. It'll stay in the family for as long as I'm alive so I'm not too concerned about resale value.  Have a good weekend my friend.

[mzinski]

I will support John's note about originality, sale value, and collectibility. Once you refinish, there's no going back. 

Why do you want to get rid of the radium and refinish the dial? Aesthetically, it looks pretty decent. 

I saw you want to go with a US based dial refinisher but I think that's a mistake. I recommend you send it off to Bill and Sons in the UK. With them you have two options, they can use the vintage cliches they have on hand to best replicate the dial you have. It won't be the same but it will be an excellent dial and they will work with you to customize the colors, shade of lume, etc. On one of my dials they helped select a white that was an off white so it didn't feel/look glaringly like a redial. 

You have a second option in which they develop a custom cliche based on your dial. Basically, they take a high resolution photo of the existing dial, create a vector artwork out of it, and create a custom cliche to reprint the dial. I did this a few dials (Patek, Breitling, Rolex, and a sentimental off-brand skin diver). Again, the work is excellent AND you get a dial that is the same as the original. 

They will remove radium. 

Can't recommend them highly enough. After experience with so many others, I only go to Bill and Sons now.  

Edited February 22 by mzinski

[arron]

Thanks Mzinski.  I worry about losing the piece sending it abroad (i'm a little paranoid these days with even my local mail service but don't get me started on that), but I'll definitely contact them and see what they think about a restoration.  I appreciate the lead.

[rehajm]

I concur with keeping the original dial and hands but respect you are concerned about the radium. Is this a cal 59? 700? If so there are replacement dials and hands around. Find something in poor condition to send to the restorer and keep these original since they are in excellent condition, not only because of value but because of the artifact value. You are not only the owner but a custodian of a piece of history, imo…

…that said, I’ve used Kirk Rich they did excellent work…

…feel free to note my hypocrisy . In the case of this watch the movement was in nearly flawless condition after service and I’m a fan of the idea of coherence, so now the dial matches the other elements…

 

Edited February 22 by rehajm

[arron]

@rehajm that looks amazing.  I couldn't find kirk curry online.  do you have a link or the web address?  I'm not sure of the caliber, rolex seems to go by refererence numbers and it's a 2940.  

Edited February 22 by arron

[rehajm]

4 minutes ago, arron said:

@rehajm that looks amazing.  I couldn't find kirk curry online.  do you have a link or the web address?

My mistake- Kirk Currie is the golf outfit, the dial repair is Kirk Rich…also corrected in post above…

https://krdial.com

 

Edited February 22 by rehajm

[arron]

Ironically that's the first company that I mentioned in my opening post but I also made a mistake and transposed the names; I put rich Kirk and it should be Kirk rich as you indicated. That is the outfit in California.  That is good to know that you had a good experience with them.  Thanks again.

[rehajm]

3 hours ago, arron said:

I'm not sure of the caliber, rolex seems to go by refererence numbers and it's a 2940.  

…I’m curious- educate me if you can…I thought the 2940 had a sweep second so I pulled my field guide and that ref isn’t listed as an oyster perpetual ref. A quick search I couldn’t find any listed 2940s with a sub. That reference is listed as an ‘other antique wristlet’…so you probably have an very early or pre-op, like bubbleback period, yes?

[mzinski]

4 hours ago, arron said:

Thanks Mzinski.  I worry about losing the piece sending it abroad (i'm a little paranoid these days with even my local mail service but don't get me started on that), but I'll definitely contact them and see what they think about a restoration.  I appreciate the lead.

I understand. Using a FedEx envelope to ship is fast and in my experience, so far, very reliable. 

My Rolex 6605 dial, before (it was an old redial to start with) and after, with Bill & Sons: 

 

[arron]

Quote

…I’m curious- educate me if you can…I thought the 2940 had a sweep second so I pulled my field guide and that ref isn’t listed as an oyster perpetual ref. A quick search I couldn’t find any listed 2940s with a sub. That reference is listed as an ‘other antique wristlet’…so you probably have an very early or pre-op, like bubbleback period, yes?

Yes it is a "bubbleback" and the story i was told was that my great grandfather bought it new in 1944.  You are right most of them do not have sub dials. Searching on eBay I found 6 dials that are 2940s and only one of them has a sub dial.  They all seem to be 25 millimetres in diameter. I need to pull mine out of the case and measure it to see if the one ebay dial might fit.

[rehajm]

great story- thank you!

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, rehajm said:

I concur with keeping the original dial and hands but respect you are concerned about the radium. Is this a cal 59? 700? If so there are replacement dials and hands around. Find something in poor condition to send to the restorer and keep these original since they are in excellent condition, not only because of value but because of the artifact value. You are not only the owner but a custodian of a piece of history, imo…

…that said, I’ve used Kirk Rich they did excellent work…

…feel free to note my hypocrisy . In the case of this watch the movement was in nearly flawless condition after service and I’m a fan of the idea of coherence, so now the dial matches the other elements…

 

was that fully stripped back and redone ?  looks quite authentic 

[Knebo]

This is an interesting topic. 

@JohnR725 remarked correctly that resale value will dramatically go down then dials are refinished. I recently saw a 1940 Longines Flyback Chronograph in incredible condition. Could have been worth 50-70k. But the dial was repainted. Now the value is around 5k. Crazy. 

I'm also a big advocate of originality. Even if it includes a big of damage/deterioration. 

BUT, I nevertheless agree with @mzinski.. if you're afraid of the radium and you won't wear it... and you're not looking at selling... then do what you want with it! You'll honor the watch more if you wear than storing it away in a lead-box. 

BUT, this brings up a deeper question. What is "refinishing"?? 

There are different levels:

1. Keep everything original and just clean gently (my favourite) 

2. Remove radium but leave everything else exactly how it was (I could live with that!) 

3. Correct/add paint where it has faded in a manner that blends in with the original paint (I probably wouldn't, but maybe acceptable) 

4. Repaint the whole dial

.. 

99. and then there is what I've so far seen from Kirk Rich. 

If you look at this video: 

 

.. you see how they remove EVERYTHING from the dial and "recreate" it from scratch. To me, this is absolutely unacceptable (unless the dial was completely gone... which it really wasn't in this case). Any collector will immediately see that it's redone (e.g. all the printing is a tad too thick; the edges of the pie pan have become rounded,...). I personally find it a crying shame. There's nothing original left in this dial (except the brass plate itself). 

That's just my opinion, though. 

 

I may be unfair to Kirk Rich, because maybe that's what the client wanted. And if, upon request, they just remove radium - and leave everything else untouched - great! They probably have the skills. 

But just make sure you know exactly what they're doing. 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

The idea of retaining the original dial and having a new dial made up....that sounds like a good option that allows for being able to wear an otherwise stored hidden away watch and a return to originality .

[rehajm]

4 hours ago, Knebo said:

I nevertheless agree with @mzinski.. if you're afraid of the radium and you won't wear it... and you're not looking at selling... then do what you want with it! You'll honor the watch more if you wear than storing it away in a lead-box

…and this is what I came to believe about the JL. Normally I’m as gentle as they come on restoration and a big fan of heavy patina but this dial was disintegrating and shedding flakes and dust. I did look for a replacement jl dial for about six months but came up empty. I managed to find one LeCoultre at Perrins of all places but after I sent the dial in…

...and yes that’s the process my dial received. This method is troublesome for a pie pan since they bend it a bit. I think I can see it was asymmetric at the end.

I am however quite pleased with the result on my example. It would otherwise be one to sit in a drawer, now someone who wants an amazing vintage watch will appreciate it. It awaits reassembly but I’ve removed the burned up lume on the hands and don’t plan to replace it since the effect against the light background of the dial is quite striking…

Edited February 23 by rehajm

[arron]

I hadn't responded yet because frankly I was at a mental impasse not sure how I wanted to proceed. I definitely knew that I would not have Peace of Mind with the watch as is. So I did decide to remove the radium myself which I finally completed.  I'm the kind of guy that likes my vintage stuff to look used and abused so I actually don't mind the way the dial looks currently and may decide to just wear it like that once I redo the hands.  Unfortunately no comparison to the cool looking dial it was before (choices, choices).  However I am still debating whether to send the dial in and have it redone.  To be continued.

 

[Knebo]

21 minutes ago, arron said:

I hadn't responded yet because frankly I was at a mental impasse not sure how I wanted to proceed. I definitely knew that I would not have Peace of Mind with the watch as is. So I did decide to remove the radium myself which I finally completed.  I'm the kind of guy that likes my vintage stuff to look used and abused so I actually don't mind the way the dial looks currently and may decide to just wear it like that once I redo the hands.  Unfortunately no comparison to the cool looking dial it was before (choices, choices).  However I am still debating whether to send the dial in and have it redone.  To be continued.

 

I think you have done very well! It looks good just like this, in my view. 

Maybe consider painting the numerals in a colour like they were before (the burnt radium colour). That would restore the nice contrast it had. Probably not very easy, but with enough patience...