Raketa 2609.HA Rebanking

[VWatchie]

OK, I think we are ready for a joint conclusion—the one that almost all of you have suggested—namely, rebanking! In the future, I promise to listen a little more carefully to your suggestions!

In the video below, you can see three black markings on the main plate. The left and right markings indicate where the impulse pin strikes the outer sides of the pallet fork horns.

The middle marking, along with the marking on the balance wheel, shows the balance wheel’s resting position with the pallet fork centered between the banking pins. As you can see, we are dangerously close to rebanking, and since the amplitude is five to ten degrees higher with the dial facing up, we can be fairly certain that rebanking is occurring.

BTW, listen for the galloping sound! 

 

The video inspired me to make a new recording of the sound, now with the dial facing up. This time, I placed a Petri dish against the movement to act as a resonance chamber, amplifying the sound (Wow, I had a thought outside the box!). And wouldn’t you know it—the case is closed!

 

I must say, it feels like a relief to have finally determined the cause. Now, all that remains is to decide on the best possible course of action, and I am still strongly leaning toward @nickelsilver's suggestion. That is, moving the pallet stones out a bit.

[nevenbekriev]

19 hours ago, VWatchie said:

Thanks for your insight and advice! Much appreciated! 

I’m having trouble seeing the vibration (ringing), probably because I don’t know what to look for. In which video is the vibration most visible? Does the vibration occur sideways or vertically, or maybe both? In short, what should I be looking for?

How do you do that in practice? I assume that by "max shrank position," you mean when the hairspring is at its most compressed, that is, when the coils are closest to each other, yes?

That’s also something I find unclear in terms of how it should be done. As far as I understand it, the regulator pin should always be parallel to the boot.

Here is my attempt at illustrating how I interpret your description of what needs to be done. Is this correct?

If so, I’m also wondering how this is done in practice. Do you first bend the regulator pin at its attachment point under the arm and then bend it back slightly lower down, towards the anti-shock setting?

Practical advice on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated!

First of all, confirm if it is not rebanking (or if it is) and do this things only if it is not.

To see hairspring ringing, in the last video, sellect full screen, settings, playback speed. custom (0.25). Then watch and will see how the spring rings sideway.

Yes, I mean centering the spring when it is most compressed. Turn the balance to the end and will see that now the spring is not centered. This is normal, but try to center it better in this position, regardless what it will look like in rest position.

The regulator will rather look like this. Press where the red arrow is in the presence of the spring, this will more or less make it look like on the picture

 

 

P.S. Ok, we have the decision arrived until I was writing the last so forget about it

[mikepilk]

51 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

I must say, it feels like a relief to have finally determined the cause. Now, all that remains is to decide on the best possible course of action, and I am still strongly leaning toward @nickelsilver's suggestion. That is, moving the pallet stones out a bit.

An easier fix, and one that doesn't involve physical changes, is what Omega suggest in a working sheet I have: replace the oil in the balance jewel on the dial side with HP1300. It suggests that will knock about 10-15° off. If that's not sufficient, do the same on the other jewel.

I have always started by oiling the pallet pivots, but that has not usually worked for me.

[nickelsilver]

My first port in a case of rebanking would be a weaker mainspring. It's not always feasible though. Then, I would increase total lock either by moving the pallet stones or the bankings, whichever is easiest to implement. 0.005mm goes a long way here.

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, tomh207 said:

Box? There’s a box? Wish I knew, would make things much easier.

 

Tom

It's the box that we climb into when the thinking outside of it becomes too much. Obviously Tom I have two of these boxes and need two more for when two is not enough. I made my own but if you feel fancy then Bergeon will probably do them as soon as they discover how popular we've made them. 

[VWatchie]

I always find it satisfying when a discussion thread describing a problem reaches a proper conclusion for future readers, so here’s my contribution.

As has been evident throughout this thread, there are several ways to address rebanking. The most attractive solutions are those that do not place any responsibility on the next person servicing the movement, but that wasn’t entirely the path I chose.

@nickelsilver's first suggestion was to install a weaker mainspring, and in hindsight, I think that would have been the best approach—at least as long as all other obvious sources of error have been ruled out.

The reason I was hesitant to replace the mainspring was that I felt confident the original spring was installed and that the root cause was something else. But “feeling” is, of course, no guarantee. I suspect that finding the original mainspring dimensions can be quite difficult, in which case one would have to measure and then try to source a slightly weaker generic spring. I’m not sure how large the selection of mainsprings with T-shaped bridles is, but I have a feeling it’s not particularly extensive—though I could be wrong. All in all, I didn’t feel like dealing with it. Maybe next time!

Anyway, I started by adjusting the total locking depth of the pallet stones from one-quarter of the length of the impulse face to slightly more than a quarter. This eliminated most of the rebanking in the dial-down position but had little effect in the dial-up position.

So, I made a second adjustment, increasing the total locking depth to just over a third of the length of the impulse face. This completely eliminated the rebanking in the dial-down position, but in the dial-up position, it persisted—although not as severely. That was, of course, disappointing, as I had no desire to use higher-viscosity oils as suggested by @mikepilk, since the next person servicing it would likely encounter the same issue.

Nevertheless, I decided to replace the 9010 oil on the cap jewel on the balance side with HP-1300 oil, as it was in the dial-up position that the rebanking remained. This action nearly eliminated the rebanking, but not entirely. After about 30 seconds, the rebanking would return for a few seconds, then disappear, only to reappear again.

As a final step, I also oiled (HP-1300) the cap jewel on the other side, which permanently resolved the rebanking—but unfortunately, only until the next service, unless I’m the one performing it and remember to do the same.

When fully wound minus 30 minutes, the horizontal amplitudes are now approximately 290 degrees, while the vertical amplitudes are just over 250 degrees. After 24 hours, the horizontal amplitudes are around 260 degrees, and the vertical ones are around 220 degrees. These measurements were taken with a lift angle of 46 degrees—the official lift angle for the Raketa caliber 2609.HA is 42 degrees, but as mentioned in a previous post, I measured it at 46 degrees. The specified power reserve for this movement is 40 hours.

On 3/3/2025 at 7:10 PM, mikepilk said:

An easier fix, and one that doesn't involve physical changes, is what Omega suggest in a working sheet I have: replace the oil in the balance jewel on the dial side with HP1300. It suggests that will knock about 10-15° off. If that's not sufficient, do the same on the other jewel.

I have always started by oiling the pallet pivots, but that has not usually worked for me.

This extract is interesting. At first glance, it almost looks like an April Fool’s joke—it’s vague, talks about replacing the lubrication on the bridle, and recommends using colorless oil. The latter won’t be much help for the next person servicing it. Then again, red-colored oil would likely still be difficult to see against the red of the cap jewel. No matter how I look at it, I don’t see the extract explicitly recommending the use of HP-1300 on balance jewels. I’m curious—how did you reach that conclusion? I do understand that “bridle” is a typo and was meant to be “bridge.” Are you sure this extract is really from Omega?

A small but useful trick I discovered this time was how to easily align the pallet stones flush with the top side of the pallet fork, something I’ve always found both fiddly and uncertain. Normally, this isn’t a major issue if the guard pin’s mounting doesn’t protrude above the pallet fork, but unfortunately, it does in this case.

I simply placed the pallet fork upside down in a suitably sized hole in a staking block. Then, it was just a matter of applying light pressure to the yellow points shown in the image. Quick and reliable! I always surprise myself when I come up with tricks like this, as my first instinct, unfortunately, is always to look for a Bergeon tool 

One thing to watch out for with this particular movement is not to build up a bump of shellac on top of the pallet stones when re-shellacking them. This mainly applies to the entry stone since it sits just above the perimeter of the center wheel, and the distance between them is extremely small. In other words, if too much shellac is applied to the entry stone, the risk of interference is quite high.

Anyway, problem solved, at least for now!  As always, thanks for your support! 

Edited March 14 by VWatchie

[mikepilk]

3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

This extract is interesting. At first glance, it almost looks like an April Fool’s joke—it’s vague, talks about replacing the lubrication on the bridle, and recommends using colorless oil. The latter won’t be much help for the next person servicing it. Then again, red-colored oil would likely still be difficult to see against the red of the cap jewel. No matter how I look at it, I don’t see the extract explicitly recommending the use of HP-1300 on balance jewels. I’m curious—how did you reach that conclusion? I do understand that “bridle” is a typo and was meant to be “bridge.” Are you sure this extract is really from Omega?

Yes it is from Omega. The language is odd - something lost in translation. After some discussion on this forum, we concluded that it only makes sense if it's the balance jewels that are being mentioned. I never like to alter a movement unless necessary. I see no problem in just changing the oil on the balance jewels if that fixes the problem. It's an easy fix with no change to movement parts necessary. The next time the watch is serviced, someone else may fit a new mainspring and find low amplitude. They've checked everything is correct, and cannot find the cause. Not realising someone has moved the pallet jewels 

 

[mikepilk]

14 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I simply placed the pallet fork upside down in a suitably sized hole in a staking block. Then, it was just a matter of applying light pressure to the yellow points shown in the image. Quick and reliable! I always surprise myself when I come up with tricks like this, as my first instinct, unfortunately, is always to look for a Bergeon tool 

You need a Bergeon tool like mine @VWatchie  - just $5000 !

The thick brass heats evenly and stays hot whilst you apply shellac, and the holes are ideal for sitting pivots in.  

 

[VWatchie]

10 hours ago, mikepilk said:

The next time the watch is serviced, someone else may fit a new mainspring and find low amplitude. They've checked everything is correct, and cannot find the cause. Not realising someone has moved the pallet jewels 

Yes, which method we should choose is undeniably something of a dilemma, and we can approach it in different ways, but I follow your reasoning.

My fundamental approach, regardless of the situation, is to try to find a long-term sustainable solution. I dislike "quick fixes" because they usually only solve a problem temporarily and, in the worst case, shift the responsibility onto someone else. However, sometimes, that can still be better than doing nothing at all.

My standpoint is that a standard maintenance service for a watch with no apparent faults, where no parts are replaced (including the mainspring), no modifications are made, and typical oils are used, should result in a well-functioning watch.

The next person who services this watch, if it’s not me, will inevitably restore the rebanking (unless the mainspring is replaced), as it is common practice to lubricate the balance jewels with Moebius 9010 or a similar oil. Therefore, I believe that a permanent solution, if possible, is preferable.

9 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

You need a Bergeon tool like mine @VWatchie  - just $5000 !

I just love the new design of the Bergeon logo. H-ll, I'd be happy to pay $10000 for it!

10 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Yes it is from Omega. The language is odd - something lost in translation.

Exactly, probably translated from French to English by a French work experience student! 

[VWatchie]

After casing the watch and running it on my CykloTest for two days, the re-banking returned.

I was about to regulate it, confident that everything would be fine. Yes, I know—the movement needs time to settle, and the oils need to be distributed. I didn’t think it would make much of a difference, but I was wrong.

So, I decided to oil the jewel on the pallet fork bridge with HP-1300. The result? The overall amplitude dropped by about 10 degrees. Now, it's back on my CykloTest. I can’t help but feel sorry for the next person who services this watch. The next time I encounter re-banking, I’ll seriously consider using a weaker mainspring.

 

[mikepilk]

I recently had a ladies Rolex Tudor (ETA 1173). I fitted a new mainspring (the correct size) and immediately got serious rebanking. I re-fitted the much weaker original mainspring I had taken out - calculated to be about 30% weaker, and it was still on the edge of rebanking.  So I oiled the pallet pivots, scratched my head, and accepted it. I've no idea what was going on.

[nevenbekriev]

OK, there are messages in russian forum that will say often times USSR movements rebank after cleaning and lubrication wit modern swiss oils. This could simply mean that the old USSR oils used at the time were preventing movements from rebanking.

[VWatchie]

On 3/18/2025 at 6:54 AM, nevenbekriev said:

This could simply mean that the old USSR oils used at the time were preventing movements from rebanking.

This is what I suspected early on, and from that perspective, we should not have any reason to feel guilty for not following the conventional methods of lubricating a modern Swiss watch movement when working on vintage Russian movements.

Edited March 25 by VWatchie

[VWatchie]

I just remembered that Russian watch oils are manufactured and sold, but I don't know which ones would be suitable for a project like this: