Omega 580 low amplitude despite “everything”

[joelcarvajal]

Good day, everyone!

I am currently working on an Omega 580!  This is such a small movement (6 lignes)!

Issue: I’m only getting an amplitude of around 190 (in various positions) on this thing despite all these efforts:

1) I individually tested how smoothly each gear in the train works run by mounting them separately.  All runs OK (i.e., continuously spins to a slow stop after blowing on them).  Except for the center wheel which stops as soon as I stop blowing on it.  I figured it is because it is heavier.  Nonetheless, I adjusted the jewel bearings of the center wheel to increase the end shake.

2) I replaced the mainspring with an original NOS mainspring (440-1280)

3) I polished all train wheels’ pivots, including balance pivots and pallet forks’, with eve flex sticks (Grit 800).

4) Replaced the balance wheel with a NOS in a desperate attempt.

5) I use 9010 oil on the train wheel, balance end caps; 9415 (too heavy?) on the pallet fork jewels.  HP1300 on the center wheel and barrel arbour.  No lubrication on the pallet fork pivots.

6) run the movement without the motion works.

7) Barrels arbour end and side shakes are ok.  Barrel not rubbing on main plate and bridge.  Train wheel side and end shake OK.

8. Pegged all jewel holes.  Each jewel holes inspected for cracks under the microscope.  All are OK, clean.

9) Balance end caps are smooth, no dimples, clean.

10) Pallet forks (not the entire pallet fork) were treated with epilame.  Run 15 minutes dial up and dial down before applying lubrication.  Lubricate the escape jewel 3 times to cover all escapement wheel teeth.  Escapement wheel and balance end caps also treated with epilame.

11) balance impact jewel cleaned using moistened pith wood

12) Pinions are clean.  All gear teeth are OK.

Sorry if this is like a checklist of movement service but I just want to explain that I did everything already and yet I have a low amplitude.  Hoping I can get some insights from you.

I’m thinking of using less viscosity oils (example: 9014 instead of 9010) and using 941 instead of 9415.  I’m not sure it will help.

For such a small movement, I’m thinking this might be the best it can get.

1) Any tips on what else I can try?

2) What is the acceptable amplitude for such a small movement?

Thank you all for your support!  Cheers!

Edited March 4 by joelcarvajal

[Klassiker]

Your list is good, but there are still a few other things to check. Any clues from the timegrapher traces? What is the power reserve? What is the shape of the hairspring like? Is it clean? Excessive lock on the pallet stones? Fork horns rubbing on the impulse jewel? Safety pin rubbing? I'm sure others will add more.

In the end, if the timekeeping is good in all positions and you have checked everything you can think of, be satisfied and move on.

[VWatchie]

4 hours ago, joelcarvajal said:

3) I polished all train wheels’ pivots, including balance pivots and pallet forks’, with eve flex sticks (Grit 800).

I don't know how it may have affected your amplitude, but I recommend being extremely careful with EveFlex, as prolonged polishing can taper the wheel pivots. I never use anything other than the light green EveFlex, which is very soft, and only for the shortest possible time—just until I see that the pivots are clean.

On that note, if the pivots are even slightly damaged or deformed, have micro-rust, or show signs of oxidation, it can have a dramatic effect on the amplitude. In such cases, you may try replacing the affected wheels or repairing them with a Jacot lathe.

47 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

In the end, if the timekeeping is good in all positions and you have checked everything you can think of, be satisfied and move on.

In general, that is very sound advice, and I do agree! We shouldn't be too hung up on what the timing machine shows. It almost killed my interest in watch repair.

However, in this case, if the amplitude is truly just 190 degrees (yes, timing machines aren't always reliable), I would continue the fault-finding. If unsure if 190 degrees is the truth, record the balance wheel in slow motion. Here's an example with the opposite problem of too high amplitude:

 

[Knebo]

Hi @joelcarvajal

All sounds good on paper, but we need to see pictures of the movement and timegrapher readings to help more. For the movement, it would be good to see pictures of the balance (in situ, but not running) straight from the top and directly from the side. 

I'd advise against using lighter oils. 9010 is already very thin on the train. Anything lighter and you'll run a significant risk of the oils creeping away from where they should be.

Omega (as @JohnR725 will always remind us) is mostly concerned with amplitude after 24h of running. The vertical amplitudes after 24h should usual be no lower than 160-180°, depending on the specific movement. 

 

Oh, and one big one to keep in mind is that the lift angle of the Omega 580 should be 56°! If you are using 52 on the timegrapher, you can will be positively surprised when setting it to 56. Expect an increase of around 25°.

 

 Cheers, 

Christian 

20 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

In general, that is very sound advice, and I do agree! We shouldn't be too hung up on what the timing machine shows. It almost killed my interest in watch repair.

However, in this case, if the amplitude is truly just 190 degrees (yes, timing machines aren't always reliable), I would continue the fault-finding.

Agreed. 

Edited March 4 by Knebo

[nickelsilver]

On small calibers like this just a little too much lubrication on the escapement can drag the amplitude down. On the extreme, when I do LeCoultre 101 calibers, I found that 9415 is too thick, and even 9010 would zap the amplitude if more than just a hint was applied. On most "ladies" calibers I do use 9415, but just the tiniest amount. You should really get the amplitude up to a healthy 270, especially as these small movements tend to have a larger drop in the vertical positions. Some have 60 degrees.

 

Try cleaning the fork and escape wheel, and see what the dry amplitude is (with the correct lift angle as Knebo mentioned, if you haven't been using it). Add just the smallest amount of 9415 you possibly can, and see how it does. It will need some time to settle in. Keep adding until you get to your normal amount, and see what happens.

 

It could be that the escapement needs some adjustment too, imagining everything else is really 100% OK. There are weeks where I adjust it on almost every watch that comes through, others where I don't, but I would say probably 25-30% get adjusted in order to have a correct amplitude.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I don't know how it may have affected your amplitude, but I recommend being extremely careful with EveFlex, as prolonged polishing can taper the wheel pivots. I never use anything other than the light green EveFlex, which is very soft, and only for the shortest possible time—just until I see that the pivots are clean.

On that note, if the pivots are even slightly damaged or deformed, have micro-rust, or show signs of oxidation, it can have a dramatic effect on the amplitude. In such cases, you may try replacing the affected wheels or repairing them with a Jacot lathe.

In general, that is very sound advice, and I do agree! We shouldn't be too hung up on what the timing machine shows. It almost killed my interest in watch repair.

However, in this case, if the amplitude is truly just 190 degrees (yes, timing machines aren't always reliable), I would continue the fault-finding. If unsure if 190 degrees is the truth, record the balance wheel in slow motion. Here's an example with the opposite problem of too high amplitude:

 

fitting accompanying classic H ,I sat on my sofa drinking coffee, I almost spat it out laughing

[Knebo]

14 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

LeCoultre 101

@nickelsilver, next time you get your hands on one of these, please share some pictures!

[Neverenoughwatches]

I think it's always a good idea to consider how long the watch keeps good time for as well as a healthy amplitude.  If the reserve is lasting almost to the watch spec and the timekeeping is still good..then you make a decision as to leave it as is,  like Klassiker suggested. I think about the first watch I ever repaired, a Soviet model, would only run at 220° at full wind, but would unwind completely and keep good time. Four years later it is still the same...and my favourite watch.

[JohnR725]

 

7 hours ago, joelcarvajal said:

3) I polished all train wheels’ pivots, including balance pivots and pallet forks’, with eve flex sticks (Grit 800).

Interesting technique for all the pivots? Was there a problem concern rust?

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I don't know how it may have affected your amplitude, but I recommend being extremely careful with EveFlex, as prolonged polishing can taper the wheel pivots. I never use anything other than the light green EveFlex, which is very soft, and only for the shortest possible time—just until I see that the pivots are clean.

800 grit to me doesn't seem very fine and tapering pivots doesn't seem good either. Then there's the problem of things that look bright and shiny and clean versus the reality of the situation. As an example of what I'm suggesting here of shiny is not necessarily shiny I'm attaching a PDF. One of the samples and let me quotes they're using Polished with Cratex™ abrasive stick – X-fine grade. Zero idea how extra fine grade compares to 800 grit?

 

7 hours ago, joelcarvajal said:

2) What is the acceptable amplitude for such a small movement?

Acceptable amplitude for a fully wound up freshly serviced watch is typically only a concern of discussion groups and some YouTube channels. .

2 hours ago, Knebo said:

Omega (as @JohnR725 will always remind us) is mostly concerned with amplitude after 24h of running. The vertical amplitudes after 24h should usual be no lower than 160-180°, depending on the specific movement. 

 

Oh, and one big one to keep in mind is that the lift angle of the Omega 580 should be 56°! If you are using 52 on the timegrapher, you can will be positively surprised when setting it to 56. Expect an increase of around 25°.

Typically watch companies are concerned with timekeeping. After all that's what the consumer is most concerned about is their watch on time.  I've snipped out an image of the specifications for your watch.

So as you can see the lift angle is 56°. You have your timing specifications and 160° Minimal permissible amplitude in vertical positions after 24h in degrees. Then of course they have a power reserve will the watch in this case run for 30 hours.

 

Pivots finishing burnishing electron microscope.pdf

[nickelsilver]

That's a really interesting read on the burnishing John. There's good reason why companies go to the expense and effort to burnish pivots.

Edited March 4 by nickelsilver

[tomh207]

As always @JohnR725 contributes great documentation to help our understanding. Eveflex is pretty much the same as Cratex I have found. I have used the extra fine Eveflex to clean up pivots, looking at the document John attached I think I will be inclined to follow up any cleaning with Eveflex with some quality time with the Jacot tool.

Tom

[nickelsilver]

2 hours ago, Knebo said:

@nickelsilver, next time you get your hands on one of these, please share some pictures!

I used to do overflow work for a Big Brand known for using these 101s, would see a couple a year. Stopped doing that a few years back and have had a 104 in (it's like 0.5mm bigger) but no 101s since. They are a bit nerve wracking to do as even LeCoultre doesn't really have parts for them. A colleage split a 104 pallet fork once and we had to remake it in house.

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

800 grit to me doesn't seem very fine and tapering pivots doesn't seem good either. Then there's the problem of things that look bright and shiny and clean versus the reality of the situation. As an example of what I'm suggesting here of shiny is not necessarily shiny I'm attaching a PDF. One of the samples and let me quotes they're using Polished with Cratex™ abrasive stick – X-fine grade. Zero idea how extra fine grade compares to 800 grit?

Pivots finishing burnishing electron microscope.pdf 1.19 MB · 8 downloads

wow, this is indeed very interesting.

in fact, it makes me reflect on my use of Extra Fine EveFlex for pivot pre-cleaning. I sometimes stick the pivots into the EveFlex and turn it just a 4-5 times. No intention to polish, but just to remove potential sticky oils (the equivalent of pegging the jewels with pegwood). But I am now worried that this may actually scratch up the pivots. Next time I'll just stick the pivots into degreaser-soaked pithwood.

 

50 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

A colleage split a 104 pallet fork once and we had to remake it in house

impressive, as always. can't even imagine how you'd do that.

[JohnR725]

10 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

That's a really interesting read on the burnishing John. There's good reason why companies go to the expense and effort to burnish pivots.

This brings up an interesting problem. The watch companies when manufacturing watches burnish their pivots. With the factories burnishing their pivots to very exacting specifications.

9 hours ago, tomh207 said:

I have used the extra fine Eveflex to clean up pivots, looking at the document John attached I think I will be inclined to follow up any cleaning with Eveflex with some quality time with the Jacot tool.

8 hours ago, Knebo said:

No intention to polish, but just to remove potential sticky oils (the equivalent of pegging the jewels with pegwood). But I am now worried that this may actually scratch up the pivots. Next time I'll just stick the pivots into degreaser-soaked pithwood.

Then we get these two interesting quotes. How much cleaning is really needed on a pivot in the field? How aggressively do they need to be cleaned to be clean? I have a concern with the aggressive nature of people in discussion groups and YouTube videos aggressively doing things to their pivots without thought as to the consequence of what they're doing. Then as we saw in the PDF things that are shiny Are not necessarily smooth.

Then there is the other problem of burnishing. Done at the factory to exacting specifications. But in the field on the gear train is there a consequence to this? Now I'm excluding the balance pivots but even there you do have to be careful not to reduce the diameter down when you're aggressively burnishing or changing the shape of the pivot if it's that far gone he she just replace the staff if you can. Here is an image snipped out of the Swiss watch repair manual I believe on consequences of burnishing pivots.

 

 

[RichardHarris123]

I think that less is more, in other words, do the bare minimum to make the movement run to what is acceptable. 

[Knebo]

10 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Here is an image snipped out of the Swiss watch repair manual I believe on consequences of burnishing pivots.

 

This is exactly what I'm doing. A few manual turns. But not with pegwood+diamantine, but with extra fine Eveflex. When the only objective is to remove dried-up oil, I wonder what is more gentle and less likely to scratch up the pivot. 

My logic was always: if I need to peg jewels to remove dried up oil, why wouldn't the pivots also need similar treatment? 

I assumed the the extra fine, soft, rubber-based, pin-polishers by Eveflex would be the gentlest of approaches. But the article posted by John is making me unsure. 

 

Edited March 4 by Knebo

[nevenbekriev]

I will suggest to make the free oscillations test and share the results as to know if the balance and related parts is not the main source of the problem.

[joelcarvajal]

Good day everyone!  Thank you all for the replies.  I appreciate all the suggestions.

The following are my action items to aid in further analysis:

( ) Share pictures of timegrapher results, after 24 hours from cleaning

( ) Take a picture of the hairspring

( ) Capture videos of pallet fork and balance assembly in operation

( ) Take pictures of balance assembly from various angles

( ) Measure power reserve and performance near unwound

( ) Do free oscillation tests on the train and escapement

( ) try to capture how much lubricstion there is on the pallet fork / escape wheel

some comments/replies:

* I use lift angle of 56

* I used the Eveflex in an effort to increase amplitude.  There’s no corrosion on the pivots.

* Adjusting the escapement is beyond my skill level.  In fact my usual remedy is to replace parts.

Again, thank you so much!

[joelcarvajal]

Sorry for radio silence on this.  Truth be told, I had an “accident” while dismantling the movement again and now I have a damaged hairspring.

I will try to reuse the other balances that I replaced or maybe even try to repair the hairspring.

 I’ll give updates as soon as I get myself to work on this movement again.

it is really so tiny!

[Klassiker]

Sorry to hear that, but it's all part of the learning process. Don't let it get you down. It's just a small setback in a long journey.