Correct amount of braking grease for automatics

[neevo]

When servicing an automatic movement how much braking grease should be applied to the walls of the barrel.

Ive been trying to not overly lubricate when I reassemble but I’m thinking I might need to be a bit more generous with the braking grease.

Reason being is I’m getting 250 amplitude on an Omega 565 but I can hear the spring slipping a bit at full wind. Sometimes it will jump up to 270 on a full find but immediately slip back down to 240-250.

Ive been applying 5 spots (Morbius 8213) around the barrel but not large ones. Wondering if you need a reasonable amount to add the necessary friction to get the amplitude up. I have not replaced the mainspring and it likely is original to the watch.

I’m fine with the amplitude figures I’m getting. It’s still over 200 after 24h. It’s more a technique question.

Edited March 5 by neevo

[HectorLooi]

That's the million dollar question. If you ask 10 watchmakers, you'll get 10 different answers.

This forum's owner, Mark Lovick, shows on a few YouTube videos, just a tiniest bit applied to the grooves of the barrel wall.

I've tried that and found that on some watches, the slippage can be quite bad. I could hear the spring go "kerchung" and end up with less that 24 hours of reserve power. But that's when using the crown to wind the mainspring. I have not tested whether this kind of slippage happens on autowind.

Now, I prefer to smear a thin coat of braking grease around the whole barrel wall. I don't feel the huge amount of slippage when I do it this way.

Now we wait for another nine watchmakers to give their opinion. 

[Knebo]

4 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

That's the million dollar question

Haha, indeed! It's one of those.. 

6 hours ago, neevo said:

200 after 24h

Vertical or horizontal position? 

 

Here is a post from @JohnR725, the hero of technical documentation:

In John's post you'll find this illustration from Omega. Shows it quite nicely. 

 

As @HectorLooi also points out, I find it important to spread out the grease prior to inserting the mainspring. This avoids pushing down the grease to the barrel floor when the mainspring is installed. 

Edited March 5 by Knebo

[JohnR725]

The other thing that affects all of this would be which grease your using.

 

For instance a very long time ago when I was doing a Seiko someone advise using the P125 but applying it all the way around as a thin layer and no that was not the right method at all. As I wound the watch up using the ratchet wheel screw which Seiko does recommend when I hit the end I'm truly amazed at the head did not fall off the screw because the definition of breaking was extremely severe not wanting to slip at all. Okay it slipped a super tiny bit but this would suggest that Omega's sparing quantities of P125 is a better method. Or basically too much of this stuff and it's not go through all.

 Then there used to be a YouTube channel which strangely enough still exists with zero content called perplxr. Unfortunately the channel still exists but they took all their videos down ages ago we should have figured out how to save some of the videos can some of them were extremely good well okay all of them were extremely good. One of them was on what happens when the breaking grease doesn't work you have too much amplitude and what it looks like on the timing machine. Then followed up with applying breaking grease which would be the Rolex version which basically looks like a creamy white semi translucent substance from memory. But he applied it in a quantity that I would consider unacceptable it was a huge quantity all the way around the outer edge and apparently that is the quantity for the Rolex lubrication.

 

4 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Now we wait for another nine watchmakers to give their opinion.

How about instead of nine watchmakers we go with one Association? Is a document too good to pass up I find it very bizarre. So for instance on page 42 we find 8201 listed as breaking grease. Now the amusement I'm having with this is I was thinking of acquiring some of this but not for breaking grease but for general purpose mainspring a lubrication. Because my understanding back.by what the manufacturer says that this is really the grease 8200 that you typically use for mainsprings with an addition of Molybdenum bisulfide (MoS2) Basically a really nice high-pressure dry lubricant mixed in.  n the PDF.

What interesting about this particular lubrication is when I was a student in school in the early days for the bottles were necessarily labeled as nice as they are now I needed a bottle of breaking grease I grabbed what looks like breaking grease and I'm pretty sure it was 8201 but I thought at the time of his breaking grease? So how did I figure out and why have I remembered all these years? That is because if you're breaking grease is it really breaking grease when you reach the end and instead it's a really nice high-pressure grease it slips really nicely well it lose like almost all your power which means this is an extremely poor breaking grease.

So other than the amusement factor not the best PDF at all found that the first link. Second and third links cover lubrication with the third link Greece and yes they do list Their breaking grease and unfortunately they do not tell how to apply it.

Then fourth link solves a problem I was actually looking for magazine. I'm a lot happier giving a source of where PDFs come from August 2012 issue covers lubrication. They even show the Rolex breaking grease which unfortunately or fortunately depending upon point of view we cannot obtain.

https://www.awci.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Lubrication-1A-Slides.pdf

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/28284-awci-horological-times-all-issues-i-could-find/

[neevo]

200 amplitude was in the DD position. I’m chasing some other issues in the movement so I have to fix those soon. But I’m the thinking I might strip the movement, clean and try a different application of the braking grease and see if I get any different results with a full wind. Maybe apply a bit more than I did last time and spread it around so it doesn’t push on to the floor as mentioned.

It was the noticeable slip I was getting on the crown at a full wind that had me thinking. As I could see a good amplitude on a full wind but it would slip a bit and drop a good 20 degrees instantly.

[dancad]

Without opening another thread, just have a question regarding the grease type. Would Moebius 8200 work as good as 8213 for this purpose ? 

Thank you.

L.E: got my answer from one of the pdf posted above by @JohnR725. Thank you for that !

 

Edited March 6 by dancad

[JohnR725]

2 minutes ago, dancad said:

Without opening another thread, just have a question regarding the grease type. Would Moebius 8200 work as good as 8213 for this purpose ?

Definitely not.

8200 is a grease designed to reduce friction of mainsprings in a barrel.

Breaking grease has very interesting properties. It's a very peculiar grease it's basically very sticky. In other words it's kind of the opposite of a grease in a way it's not designed to reduce friction it's designed to hold something until sufficient force allows it to slip. Then once energy is dissipated it grips again.

[dancad]

Thank you @JohnR725it is indeed a really complex topic, especially for a newbie like me. 

Can I take this as a general reference ? 

[JohnR725]

28 minutes ago, dancad said:

Can I take this as a general reference ? 

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by a general reference?

I have a link to the website that covers the greases and yes it's confusing. It would be really nice if the company that makes so much lubrication would have application notes on how to apply things etc. but they don't.

I'm a snip out a whole bunch of images oh and notice how these are all listed as natural versus synthetic?

Looks like they have one more breaking grease just to add to the confusion

 

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

 

[dancad]

I meant to say, based on that table, for Barrel spring we can use as general application on all watches one of those types that is recommended : 8200, 8141 or 8201, while for Barrel walls will be: 8217 or material specific (alu or brass) 8212 or 8213.

So far I only have 8200 and I thought it's enough for barrel lubrication.

[neevo]

I certainly looks from my reading so far that I was a bit lean on the braking grease. So I’ll have another go.

Another question. Should the grease be mixed before application? I only have a very small tub but can clearly see it’s “looser” at the edges vs in the middle. I have been taking it from the edges but maybe this is less than ideal if it’s thinned out? Maybe I’m reducing its performance by not mixing it beforehand.